Aerial view map of Villa Adriana by Battista Piranesi

KorbenDallas

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Below you will find two images. One of them is the etching done by Battista Piranesi (1720 - 1778) some time in the 18th century. The other one is a screenshot of the same area I did 5 minutes ago using Google Earth. If we have a guru, who could do an overlay, please help us out. From what I see the two are 100% identical bar the time difference.

Piranesi_Villa_Adriana.jpg Villa Adriana_italy_1.jpg


I think that Mr. Piranesi had an access to some older sources.

Here is the full geo line up of the area comprised by Piranesi

Piranesi_Villa_Adriana.jpg Piranesi_Map_Italy_2.jpg Piranesi_Map_Italy_3.jpg Piranesi_Map_Italy_4.jpg Piranesi_Map_Italy_5.jpg Piranesi_Map_Italy_6.jpg
And to top it off, how about that? These are bigger files.

Piranesi-Rome_Map_1.jpg Piranesi-Opere di Giovanni Battista Piranesi_1.jpg Die antiken Bauten Rom_piranesi.jpg Giovanni_Battista_Nolli-Nuova_Pianta_di_Roma_(1748).JPG
Any ideas how Piranesi did these areal maps in 1750s? Did he employ an army of surveyors, or the rumor about these maps being copied of the granite slabs could be true?

And if Piranesi's maps were not enough, how about this 1551 map by Leonardo Bufalini. Consider this: The first instrument more like a true theodolite was likely the one built by Joshua Habermel in Germany in 1576. The first occurrence of the word "theodolite" is found in the surveying textbook A geometric practice named Pantometria (1571) by Leonard Digges. Prior to the theodolite, instruments such as the geometric square and various graduated circles and semicircles were used to obtain either vertical or horizontal angle measurements. - Wiki

Leonardo Bufalini map_1551.jpg
 

CyborgNinja

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#2
This is very accurate work. If he didn't copy these from an older source then it's easily a couple years of surveying work. You would have to assume he had an entire team working under him. One man doing all this from scratch would be very impressive.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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I would like to hear @Hardy opinion on this one. He has some surveyor background. Taking into consideration dogmatic knowledge about the 18th century, I do not think this accuracy is possible even with an army of surveyors. Precision theodolite was only introduced in 1787. Piranesi was dead for 10 years by then.
 

Hardy

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Yes i will try it, but it takes time. I even don't have Google Earth on my bargain offer discount Tablet PC - shame on me.
At first the Piranesi maps are a bit disturbing because of the artistic attributes.
They are not only exact nearly modern looking but also beautiful.Furthermore the question if it is possible to make maps without a Theodolith? The first 5 maps do not show a giant terrain, i think 4-6 Km² . Theoretically It's possiblel but there is already the end for this method -at the very most. Practically i would do it with an orthoganal method, but mind there are trees and hills cutting most measure lines off. Additional the error in the net will explose the more expansion there is.
Remains Triangulation and without a good Theo it isn't possible. First step is to lay a net of triangels over the landscape, second step is to make a so called 'Riss' some kind of scetch with datas for the details in each triangel. That means a lot of sketches - By the way i know if it rains your scetch goes away and anyway: You nearly need a paper industrie for all these scetches and calculations and you still don't have the map. But i get off the point.I find it difficult to imagine some kind of let's say 1980 surveyor in Piranesi times with a big bunch of ranging poles etc. because it wasn't the 20 th century.
That was about the Theo Question and some statements for the first Cards. The other will follow after meditating them.

Additional: Even the Wollaston -Prisma for getting perpendicularity by an optical way is from 1820+, I have such a Thing here, still convenient.
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Any ideas how Piranesi did these areal maps in 1750s? Did he employ an army of surveyors, or the rumor about these maps being copied of the granite slabs could be true?
It seems to me that korben always is one step ahead...
If we start from the premise that Piranesi was no cartographer but more an Artist who engraved things on a very accurate way he have seen we must take all information on the Picture seriously.Just as the artistic Information on the other maps that we wrongly take for frippery. Then the rumors suggested by Korben are right. The whole subsurface of the map is a slab. And the magnitude of the 5 parts belonging together discribe
much more than my 6 Km² from one part. It seems that the building projects are added later, on an older structure - or added to the engraving?
Are the Buildings a state or a construction plan?
Strange number on the clamp, a year date?

piranesi detail2.png
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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I did not even see that date on there. Good find Hardy. I need to learn to pay more attention.

1031 would be a strange date for indeed. Too crazy to be true.

I need to see if other images have some sort of other numbers to corroborate this one. Could some sort of print number, though unlikely.
 

Hardy

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#9
Could some sort of print number, though unlikely.
We have legions of so called experts, but i doubt that anybody of them have an explanation for those details like the number on the clamp. To this the academics are forced to deal with their messed up historical paradigm. Our Position is better!

This ' Puzzle' shows that Piranesi deals in fact with fragments of stone carved maps. It's the matter of the ' Forma Urbis Romae' .Fragments of this huge map carved in marmor are still found,the last allegedly 2014.The 'Forma Urbis Romae' originally measured 18 m (60 ft) wide by 13 m (45 ft) high :oops: and was carved into 150 Proconnesian marble slabs mounted on an interior wall of the Temple of Peace. Also here i find amazing little informations about the purpose and production methods.They admit that the 'Forma urbis romae' is high accurate.
The big piece in the middle is not part of the fragments. An ordinary map of a devastated area?


Image: Piranesi 1003
forma urbis romae.png
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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Our position is truly better but we are lacking academic resources, at least at this point.

So what we get is that these maps were produced by the same individuals, who constructed all those buildings on Piranesi's engravings. To produce these maps special equipment was clearly required. We have hypothetical aerial photography involved. Yet this maps are consistent with the complexity of the "ancient" buildings. At the same time the known technological level of the 18th century does not match any of those achievements.

Start to wonder if Piranesi was even a person now.
 

Hardy

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#11
Start to wonder if Piranesi was even a person now.
What makes him in line up with the wondrous Architects like Elmer Fisher and John Klutho. For me a big modern Mythos candidat is Tesla, too.
By the way, here is the 'Army of surveyors' (Coinage Korben Dallas) and their principal engineer in Action :), can't stop myself...

Section from NOLLI, Giovanni Battista map (ca 1692-1756). Nuova Pianta di Roma. Rome: 1748.

engel vermesser.PNG

The other illustration on the map shows our usual ruins with vegetation on it- years after a hypothetical cataclysm.
 
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