Flame-bladed swords. 15th Century Pro-Sports, and the Battle of Anghiari

KorbenDallas

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#1
This topic is somewhat of a build up on Jedi Knights of the 17th century. Flame-bladed swords are also known as flambard, flammard, flammenschwert and flamberge. They are not limited to only swords, so to speak. Can be a rapier, or whatever.

These swords have a very distinctive look. I'm pretty sure everybody has seen those at one point or another.

flamberge_4.jpg flamberge_1.jpg flamberge_2.jpg flamberge_3.jpg flamberge_5.jpg

The official description for these weapon is as follows: The flamberge is an undulating blade that is found on both long blades and rapiers. When parrying with such a sword, unpleasant vibrations may be transmitted into the attacker's blade. These vibrations cause the blades to slow contact with each other because additional friction is encountered with each wave. The term flamberge was misapplied to refer to two-handed swords and was used later to refer to cup hilt rapiers with a straight blade.

The two-handed flame-bladed sword is called flambard, flammard or by the German Flammenschwert (literally "flame sword"). These swords are very similar to two-handed sword or Zweihänder, the only difference being the blade. Like other Zweihänders they were used during the 16th century by the Landsknechts, well-trained and experienced swordsmen, who were called Doppelsöldner (double mercenary) because they received double pay.

Christoph_von_Eberstein,_by_Hans_Holbein_the_Younger.jpg Hendrick_Goltzius.jpg

And who were those Landsknechts? The German Landsknechts, sometimes also rendered as Landsknechte, were colourful mercenary soldiers with a formidable reputation, who became an important military force through late 15th- and 16th-century Europe. Consisting predominantly of German mercenary pikemen and supporting foot soldiers, they achieved the reputation for being the universal mercenaries of early modern Europe.

Landsknechts_111.png Landsknechts_112.jpg military-landsknechts-landsknecht-with-sword-woodcut-circa-1500.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_2.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_3.jpg
Landsknecht_sword_1_4.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_6.JPG Landsknecht_sword_1_7.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_8.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_9.jpg
military-landsknechts-with-two-handed-swords-and-daggers-woodcut.jpg Landsknechte.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_5.jpg
Though the swords do look strange. Could those cross-guards be some sort of Tesla coils?

choke-coil.jpg musical-tesla-coils.jpg toroidal-coil.jpg

Some Ancient Egypt

Ancient_egyptian_energy_ Symbol.jpg djedpillar.jpg
Below are images of some additional swords I was able to Google out of the internet. Those are some interesting hilt designs, in addition to a few straight up bizarre weapons.

3D0932A4-E2D0-4026-B2D9-DB980D1C67EE.jpeg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_1.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_22.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_2.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_23.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_3.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_4.JPG Landsknecht_sword_1_1_5.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_24.png Landsknecht_sword_1_1_6.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_28.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_7.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_8.JPG Landsknecht_sword_1_1_9.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_10.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_11.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_12.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_13.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_14.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_25.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_15.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_16.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_18.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_19.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_20.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_21.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_27.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_29.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_30.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_31.jpg
Landsknecht_sword_1_1_32.jpg Landsknecht_sword_1_1_17.jpg
It seems Attila the Hun could have had a very similar sword. And we all remember what a story associated with his special sword. Sword of Mars was the name. It is claimed to be kept in a Vienna museum, but a few believe it is really the sword of Attila.

Attila
Attila_Hun.jpg Attila_Hun_2.jpg

Mars
British Museum
mars_sword_1.jpg
Additionally we have these "Lantern Shields" and "Russian Tarch Shields". They also have the design which could be a suspect.

The-Lantern-Shield.jpg The-Lantern-Shield_1.jpg
The-Lantern-Shield_2.jpg Russian_tarch_1.jpg Russian_tarch_2.jpg

While I was unable to find any engravings with flamberge swords being used by these Landsknechts, their description sounds like 15th century Special Forces. Then again, may be there is a reason why I was unable to find any 15th-16th century engravings of the flamberge swords in use. Well, might have one, or two. They come from that single image in Jedi Knights of the 17th century topic.

jedi_old_6.jpg flamberge sword_in use_1.png flamberge sword_in use_2.png


Basically why I started this topic is the hilt design many of these flamberge swords have. I was fortunate enough to get an X-ray image of the grips utilized in these swords. And here is what they look like.

Sword_Handle_X-Ray.jpg
Obviously there gonna be a question, of why would these grips be so complicated on the inside? It definitely looks like they contain something in there. Something like what?

Battle of Anghiari

Wikipedia wisdom, "The Battle of Anghiari was fought on 29 June 1440, between the forces of Milan and those of the Italian League led by the Republic of Florence in the course of the Wars in Lombardy. The battle was a victory for the Florentines, securing Florentine domination of central Italy."

Check this out, "The battle is well known for its depiction in a now-lost painting by Leonardo da Vinci". There we go again. It is probably painted on the wall of the same room where NASA's lost Moon Landing Footage is being kept. Though "specialists" say that it might be hidden beneath later frescoes in the Hall of Five Hundred.


The painting below is Peter Paul Rubens's copy of Leonardo da Vinci's The Battle of Anghiari.

Peter_Paul_Ruben's_lost_Battle_of_Anghiari.jpg

And here is the real fun part of this article. Could this battle be a pro-sport our ancestors enjoyed 500 years ago. We could call it "Continental Light Saber League" if it was.

Game Score Board
Continental Light Saber League
Mediterranean Conference

Game date: 29 June 1440

The League's Army - 1
Florentine Contingent - 0
The Battle of Anghiari_123.png

  • The League's Army: ~ 4,000 men
  • Florentine Contingent: ~ 4,300 men (plus some additional reinforcements)
  • Game (battle) Duration: 4 hours and additionally continued into the night
  • Game deciding moment: The Milanese advanced but their right flank was soon ferociously engaged by the Papal troops
  • Game (battle) casualties: ONE person - fell off the horse and got trampled.
And this one person died from what? Here is an excerpt, "Nor was there ever an instance of wars being carried on in an enemy's country with less injury to the assailants than at this; for in so great a defeat, and in a battle which continued four hours, only one man died, and he, not from wounds inflicted by hostile weapons, or any honorable means, but, having fallen from his horse, was trampled to death."

Summary question: for over four hours 8,000+ warriors were hacking away with theirs swords and other weapons, and the only casualty of this war died because he forgot that "safety comes first"? Go ahead, explain this battle. If this is not bizarre, I don't know what is.

Battle_of_Anghiari_1.jpg Battle_of_Anghiari_2.jpg Battle_of_Anghiari_3.jpg

And on top of it, the original Leonardo painting is represented by a copy made by Rubens? Rubens was born 140 years after the battle. Leonardo was also born a bit after the battle, in 1452 but somehow Leonardo da Vinci sounds more credible. It sounds like there was something on Leonardo's painting we were not supposed to see. - detailed Wiki-info: The Battle of Anghiari (painting)


Fun Homework: try to find a photo of the battle-scarred Knight's SHINY Armor. Good-luck.
 

CyborgNinja

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#2
Wow, the swords have vibration properties. That's gotta be part of the atmospheric electicity technology.

Those grips must be designed to insulate the user from drawing a billion volts into his body.

The idea that this battle was a friendly game makes alot of sense when you see the jedi picture print. In that jedi picture are they at battle or is it a performance? It's looking more like a reenactment type scene.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#3
In that jedi picture are they at battle or is it a performance? It's looking more like a reenactment type scene.
@in cahoots stated the following here
Title. Actual demolition of the fireworks castle and the Barracks from Rome...
A. the main barrack. Military setting.
H. (cannon guy lighting wick) -- The Lord General and Pfaltzgravens bulb, the first fire given the firework.
K. (central statue) -- the column whereupon the peace image stood. Peace statue.
L. (jedis) -- men dressed in black and white battle hard with fireworks to kill each other. The energy conducting throughout the field is called "feuerwercks" -- literally, "fire works".
M. (barrels around the tower) "Cannen" may mean bottles? ... (and then what I cannot translate from "Robo," or "Robz" maybe), stood around the peace tower
N. (The strange signposts) - -a column with a large firewheel

I get an impression here that it is a celebration. The fighting seems to be purely performative - there is a choir and an audience.

Though the word demolition in the title seems to change everything. The reference to Rome is also strange. And it is incredibly strange the way they seem to use the statue to extend the very long wick, setting off what seems to be a domino cascade of fireworks emplacements.
 

The Kraken

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#5
So its a sport. The swords where tazers . Long conductive rod . Knights had fariday cages and had to be brought down or weak points pierced to knock them out. Chest plates and helmets prevent damage to organs and brain.

Chain mail isnt any better than hard leather armour. But heavyer and more expensive. Only advantage is it would redirect current.
 

humanoidlord

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#6
this is amazing.... not only we have (deactived) surviving examples of those eletrical swords, but we also have a ridiculous battle where no one died for with weapons!
also it makes sense that its a sport, look back at the jedi engraving, its clearly a play of some sort and not a serious fight
 

humanoidlord

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#10
I think we have a pretty good idea of what it is, but the officials will never admit that :)

They will probably call it some sort of a ceremonial fire iron used by medieval high priests.
i know right? it looks like some sort of weaponized cattle prod or something
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#11
What I find interesting, that it does look like it could do what we think it did. The only missing thing is the source of energy.
 

CyborgNinja

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#12
What I find interesting, that it does look like it could do what we think it did. The only missing thing is the source of energy.
These swords all have a ricasso, a unsharpened area at the hilt of the blade. Perhaps the power source or some device allowing for electrification was mounted here. Wiki says historians have no idea why blades of this era had ricasso except maybe as a time saving measure when crafting the blade.

Screenshot_2018-05-15-21-08-19.png 800px-Dresden-Zwinger-Armoury-Sword.04.JPG 800px-Epees-p1030433.jpg
 

in cahoots

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#13
Just a note to the headline -- fascinating stuff. It's so cool how, once you open up the door to the fundamental principles of EM radiation, of abdundant and free-flowing energy, the grand geometries of ancient tech and architecture take on whole new meaning and potential. The wave/ripple, the dome, the spire, the hoop/ring, and the pyramidal pinnacle -- these go well beyond decor in their application.

Haven't been through everything yet, but I was immediately reminded of THIS:

lantern_shiled_IC.jpg

Say hello to the "Lantern shield".

I won't belabour the point -- but I don't think the "lantern" affect was just the flashing of the sun, if you catch my drift. This is not a force-stopping object. This is very, very clearly technology -- I'm guessing a lightning gauntlet, like the Shocker from Spiderman.

Ach beat me to it :p, my comments stand
 
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KorbenDallas

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#14
Additionally wanted to point out the craftsmanship. Fascinating quality for the "no toilet" 1400 - 1500s.

Could be as well

William I (‘The Conqueror’) - Richard I (‘the Lionheart’)

William I The Conqueror.jpg Richard I the Lionheart.jpg
And some Egypt

Ancient Egyptian Energy Symbols: Djed, Ankh, and Was

egyptdjedpower.png Ancient_egyptian_energy_ Symbol.jpg
Ancient_egyptian_energy_ Symbols Djed, Ankh, and Was.jpg the-secret-of-the-pyramids.jpg

LOL. Could it be we call them Jedi because of this Ancient Egyptian Djed symbol?

djedpillar.jpg
 

humanoidlord

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#15
What I find interesting, that it does look like it could do what we think it did. The only missing thing is the source of energy.
yep that looks like the only thing they removed

Just a note to the headline -- fascinating stuff. It's so cool how, once you open up the door to the fundamental principles of EM radiation, of abdundant and free-flowing energy, the grand geometries of ancient tech and architecture take on whole new meaning and potential. The wave/ripple, the dome, the spire, the hoop/ring, and the pyramidal pinnacle -- these go well beyond decor in their application.

Haven't been through everything yet, but I was immediately reminded of THIS:


Say hello to the "Lantern shield".

I won't belabour the point -- but I don't think the "lantern" affect was just the flashing of the sun, if you catch my drift. This is not a force-stopping object. This is very, very clearly technology -- I'm guessing a lightning gauntlet, like the Shocker from Spiderman.

Ach beat me to it :p, my comments stand
that looks even more obviously eletronical than the "weaponized cattle prod" i posted

have you ever wondered how we look from the ancient's perspective? well:

cargo_cult_1.jpg cargo_cult_2.jpg

i think this is a pretty good guess
 
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Juniperpeach

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#17
This topic piqued my interest, so I decided to try searching around a bit on Archive.org and found a treasure trove of fascinating information:

Rariora; being notes of some of the printed books, manuscripts, historical documents, medals, engravings, pottery, etc., etc., collected (1858-1900) by John Eliot Hodgkin, F.S.A. Vol. III

The lengthy section on fireworks begins HERE, containing a large number of detailed descriptions of events where pyrotechnics were used, invitations/announcements for/regarding such events, as well as numerous engravings--some including detailed diagrams showing how some of the devices (arrows, swords, shields, etc.) were put together:

Page 22 - Flaming sword and shield.gif

Medieval "night combatants" make an appearance with flaming swords in hand, from a book entitled A Rich Cabinet, with Variety of Inventions Unlock'd and Open'd for the Recreation of Ingenious Spirits (1677):

Page 38 - Night Combatants with Faulchions and Targets.gif

From page 36: "The Night Combatants With Faulchions and Targets" (Fig. 5) are familiar objects in the earlier prints of firework displays and are here shown using similar sham weapons to those which were described by Hanzelet.

From the description, it certainly sounds like these types of flaming sword "battles" were a fairly well-known activity.

According to a section on pages 38, there was a guild called the Company of Gunners and Fireworkers at the Arsenal in Zurich that hosted large, elaborate artillery and pyrotechnics demonstrations every year which were engraved into copper by various artists and printed every New Year's Day between (at least) 1689 and 1798. The collection of engravings is called Gesellschafft Der Constaffleren Und Feurwerkeren Im Zeughausse Zu Zurich [Neuiahrs-Blätter, 1689-1798]), and is quite extensive. If one of these folios could be located, I'm certain it would be full of useful information.

In addition to weaponry and armor, there are numerous whimsical items shown in the book which incorporate things like mermaids, lions, dragons, and other creatures into their designs. Many of them look like elaborate flaming parade floats or toys.

This device in particular is especially wild, and I would have loved to have seen what something like this looked like in action:

Page VIII - An Ancient Pyrotechnic Device.gif

Of course, there were plenty of examples of beautiful fireworks displays on land and water:

Page 49 - Fireworks in Lustgarten 1616.gif Page 51 - Aquatic Fireworks Display 1650.gif

If anyone wishes to dig in, I'm sure there are plenty of goodies yet to be found in this book (related to fireworks as well as other curious things). I've only just begun flipping through. At the very least, expect to learn exactly what it means to be "hoist by your own petard"!
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#18
Now, this is more of a smoking gun type of info. Finally we have something more than just suspicions. I was always saying that as a community we will be able to uncover a thing or two.

I downloaded me a PDF of this book, just in case it disappears. Honestly, some things simply do not register.

This is definitely a treasure to find. Doubt we will though. Google zeroed out on this one from the get go.
Gesellschafft Der Constaffleren Und Feurwerkeren Im Zeughausse Zu Zurich [Neuiahrs-Blätter, 1689-1798]
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#20
I wish we could get the original commentaries to some of the images. The book was put together around 1900. So I'm pretty sure quite a few descriptions got changed.

This one in particular. Those are clearly some sorts of electrical bolts, and not pyro. May be @Hardy can help us out a bit with translation of the list we have below the image.

energy_blasts_17century.png
 
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