Gog and Magog in northeastern Tartaria

JustWow

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#1
What if the god of the old testament is not who we thought he was and in fact is the opposite? What if "he" made promises to a certain people to do his bidding and they have been every since? And when a certain time has passed (a thousand years), the "good guy" will be freed to banish the bad ones...
I ma just saying that we are all talking about history being written by the winners- so why not the Bible too? So if you are the "bad guy", you have 1000 years to tell everyone that the good guy is Satan and when he comes back- don't believe him!
Maybe in the verse below, it originally read "...Which are in ONE of the 4 corners..."
“And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them” (Revelation 20:7-9 — ASV).

Check out the map attached.

tartaria.jpg
 

sonoman

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#2
hey JustWow,

that seems plausible and workable from a Trust Law structure perspective.

what if the new testament was written before the old testament? it has been mentioned by some researchers that have verified Fomenko's work and taken it farther but this idea is only a hypothesis, nothing solid.

hate to keep promoting my thread but also hate typing the same stuff over and over so its easier lol

Ive been on a tartaria and gog/magogg path and found some very intersting tidbits related to it.

Etymology of Etymology?

FWIW there seem to be multiple gods and lords in the bible to me.

IMO all history is hearsay, only exception is each of our personal memories but then thats not history at all, its our experience recorded upon our soul only.
 

KorbenDallas

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#3
Took my wife out for a little vacation, so naturally not participating much for right now.

There could be a possibility that Baal was grossly misrepresented and was the good God, but lost.

From there, the winner wrote the history and made himself into a good one. Will probably add to the thread later on.
 
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JustWow

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#4
hey JustWow,

that seems plausible and workable from a Trust Law structure perspective.

what if the new testament was written before the old testament? it has been mentioned by some researchers that have verified Fomenko's work and taken it farther but this idea is only a hypothesis, nothing solid.

hate to keep promoting my thread but also hate typing the same stuff over and over so its easier lol

Ive been on a tartaria and gog/magogg path and found some very intersting tidbits related to it.

Etymology of Etymology?

FWIW there seem to be multiple gods and lords in the bible to me.

IMO all history is hearsay, only exception is each of our personal memories but then thats not history at all, its our experience recorded upon our soul only.
Thank you for your reply. I did say in another post that I apologize if I point out something that has already been pointed out- I am new to this forum- like 2 days new. I will go check out the link you mentioned above (Etymology...) and then hopefully we can have an interesting conversation.
Took my wife out for a little vacation, so naturally not participating much for right now.

There could be a possibility that Baal was grossly misrepresented and was the good God, but lost.

From there, the winner wrote the history and made himself into a good one. Will probably add to the thread later on.
I hope so- I am sure you will have good info as you always do.
 

Onthebit

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#5
Took my wife out for a little vacation, so naturally not participating much for right now.

There could be a possibility that Baal was grossly misrepresented and was the good God, but lost.

From there, the winner wrote the history and made himself into a good one. Will probably add to the thread later on.
This is my theory except it was much more recent than 1000 yrs ago. Also god calls himself holy @ 77 times in Leviticus which seems rather excessive don't you think? Sounds like trump. hahaha
 

dreamtime

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#6
Yes I do think that's the case. It's certainly possible that North-Eastern Asia was one of the richest and most epic regions on the earth, and the people who wrote the bible wanted to paint them in a very bad light. That was only 300-700 years ago from what I gathered. That part of civilization all went downhill when the northern hemisphere became uninhabitable and cold, but some Scythian artefacts remain, although I think they are all from the post-cataclysmic times after 1500 or so, because they focus on horses and stuff. According to Polo, which for some reason is basically the only historical source, the Tartars had a highly developed civilization. Either that or the art has been censored, because a society that creates detailed art from gold isn't nomadic.

When you take into account that the psychopaths that came to dominate the world are also the part of humanity with the least amount of skills, maybe that also explains why the maps of the past look like they were drawn by children (I mean, what the heck is this? Does this happen when you are a monk and you are bored, but you are also not allowed to paint too many details of the land area, so you spend 90% of the time coloring it and drawing intricate waves in the sea?).

They probably copied the available maps badly and destroyed the originals, due to their desire to destroy the high culture of their opponents. They had to destroy everything because it reminded them of their own incompetence.

This is an 1804 copy of perhaps the first ‘modern’ world map, made by the Venetian monk Fra Mauro in about 1450. It points south because 15th-century compasses were south-pointing. It shows the Portuguese discoveries in Africa and questioned the authority of medieval and classical sources. Intended for display in Venice, it emphasises the feats of Marco Polo. The British East India Company commissioned this copy, thus implying that Britain was heir to the Portuguese empire.

asia.png


The original map was

commissioned by the Signoria of Venice—the supreme body of government of the Republic of Venice. This edition is still in existence. This map was "rediscovered" in the monastery of St. Michael in Murano, where Fra Mauro had his studio. It is normally on public display in the final room of the Sale Monumenti in Venice, in the Museo Correr.
 
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JustWow

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#7
Yes I do think that's the case. It's certainly possible that North-Eastern Asia was one of the richest and most epic regions on the earth, and the people who wrote the bible wanted to paint them in a very bad light. That was only 300-700 years ago from what I gathered. That part of civilization all went downhill when the northern hemisphere became uninhabitable and cold, but some Scythian artefacts remain, although I think they are all from the post-cataclysmic times after 1500 or so, because they focus on horses and stuff. According to Polo, which for some reason is basically the only historical source, the Tartars had a highly developed civilization. Either that or the art has been censored, because a society that creates detailed art from gold isn't nomadic.

When you take into account that the psychopaths that came to dominate the world are also the part of humanity with the least amount of skills, maybe that also explains why the maps of the past look like they were drawn by children. They probably copied the available maps badly and destroyed the originals, due to their desire to destroy the high culture of their opponents. They had to destroy everything because it reminded them of their own incompetence.

This is an 1804 copy of perhaps the first ‘modern’ world map, made by the Venetian monk Fra Mauro in about 1450. It points south because 15th-century compasses were south-pointing. It shows the Portuguese discoveries in Africa and questioned the authority of medieval and classical sources. Intended for display in Venice, it emphasises the feats of Marco Polo. The British East India Company commissioned this copy, thus implying that Britain was heir to the Portuguese empire.

View attachment 14986

The original map was

commissioned by the Signoria of Venice—the supreme body of government of the Republic of Venice. This edition is still in existence. This map was "rediscovered" in the monastery of St. Michael in Murano, where Fra Mauro had his studio. It is normally on public display in the final room of the Sale Monumenti in Venice, in the Museo Correr.
What are your conclusions about this map? On this map, Tartaria is placed between and a little above The Caspian and Black seas. Chataio (China) is quite large, extending all the way to Siberia and where Gog and Magog should be. White and black Russia are place further west- I wish I could read it!
 

dreamtime

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#8
Chataio isn't China I think. I don't care too much about the names. Maybe the Tartars moved eastwards over time when Eastern Asia became a waste land, but even Marco Polo, on which the map is based, talked about the Tartars in Eastern Asia. When Polo asked the people in Chataio where Gog and Magog are, they told them to go north and search for the people of Ung and Mung, or something. The people of Chataio didn't think those tribes were anything special or problematic. It was only a small part of Northern Asia where they lived, and it doesn't look like they were of big importance in the overall scheme. Maybe just a great target of the church because they were the most remote tribes/kingdoms, so no one could easily go there and dispute the church stories.

When you look on the Fra Mauro map, you can see Gog and Magog, "as enclosed by Alexander", here: Notice the famous Gate that creates the open air prison. It's in the exact same location as in your above map:

gog.png


There's an accompanying text that I will copy into here later when I have time.

The idea of an almost earth-spanning Tartary is wide-spread in the alternative Russian community, but I don't think its valid. The attribution of Tartary as beacon of everything that was great in the past isn't helpful. It was annihilated from the maps, just like countless other empires, and the last emanation of Tartary seems to be imperialistic in nature. We should find a better name for the world-spanning commonwealth pre-1700 or so.

The entire map is indeed translated, so I would look there for more information on the regions.

http://geoweb.venezia.sbn.it/cms/images/stories/Testi_HSL/FM_iscr.pdf

In general when I have time I will look more closely at the positions of Russia, have't really looked into that much. Due to the changed perspective sometimes it only appears to be in a different position, if I remember correctly Jerusalem is basically the south pole in this map and it's possible that the farther you turn to the edges, that the map is basically bulging from the center, from the point of the viewer.
 
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sonoman

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#9
The idea of an almost earth-spanning Tartary is wide-spread in the alternative Russian community, but I don't think its valid. The attribution of Tartary as beacon of everything that was great in the past isn't helpful. It was annihilated from the maps, just like countless other empires, and the last emanation of Tartary seems to be imperialistic in nature. We should find a better name for the world-spanning commonwealth pre-1700 or so.
I get a very similar impression. I think it might be helpful to parse all the words associated with it (tart ary tart area, tar, etc.) though all the languages possible and then compare the notes. thats way beyond my abilities but a multiple language expert should have some good insights about it IMO

I get the feeling it has something to do with aryans but not common beliefs about that word. think air or heir etc.

I also think a big part of this puzzle has to do with the advent of written words as opposed to spoken and the aggressors were probably the most advanced in the written word and used it to their advantage. before that time, it was probably much more of an honor based trading going on between various clans, tribes, kingdoms, etc. that was much more forgiving as any disagreements were only held in mans memory, then when the written word came along, it was a new way of trading using contracts etc. adding more room for disagreements due to the interpretations, less forgiving and forgetting since the dealings were memorialized on tablets, skins, paper etc., and the more advanced taking advantage of the others. same as today but I think that has alot to do with whatever happened to whoever they were. maybe not, but sorta seems that way.
 
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JustWow

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#10
Chataio isn't China I think. I don't care too much about the names. Maybe the Tartars moved eastwards over time when Eastern Asia became a waste land, but even Marco Polo, on which the map is based, talked about the Tartars in Eastern Asia. When Polo asked the people in Chataio where Gog and Magog are, they told them to go north and search for the people of Ung and Mung, or something. The people of Chataio didn't think those tribes were anything special or problematic. It was only a small part of Northern Asia where they lived, and it doesn't look like they were of big importance in the overall scheme. Maybe just a great target of the church because they were the most remote tribes/kingdoms, so no one could easily go there and dispute the church stories.

When you look on the Fra Mauro map, you can see Gog and Magog, "as enclosed by Alexander", here: Notice the famous Gate that creates the open air prison. It's in the exact same location as in your above map:

View attachment 14993

There's an accompanying text that I will copy into here later when I have time.

The idea of an almost earth-spanning Tartary is wide-spread in the alternative Russian community, but I don't think its valid. The attribution of Tartary as beacon of everything that was great in the past isn't helpful. It was annihilated from the maps, just like countless other empires, and the last emanation of Tartary seems to be imperialistic in nature. We should find a better name for the world-spanning commonwealth pre-1700 or so.

The entire map is indeed translated, so I would look there for more information on the regions.

http://geoweb.venezia.sbn.it/cms/images/stories/Testi_HSL/FM_iscr.pdf

In general when I have time I will look more closely at the positions of Russia, have't really looked into that much. Due to the changed perspective sometimes it only appears to be in a different position, if I remember correctly Jerusalem is basically the south pole in this map and it's possible that the farther you turn to the edges, that the map is basically bulging from the center, from the point of the viewer.
I am viewing this map on the British Library website and opening it in full screen. I can only read the larger print and I have given myself a headache trying to read the smaller print. I found the area you directed me to but that's it. Also, I am unfamiliar with this famous gate?

Anyway, I agree with your comment about the church and the remoteness of Gog and Magog. I also agree that there seems to be conflicting information being floated around about Tartaria. I don't think they were giants either so we seem to have a crucial piece of the puzzle missing.
To stay on point (of the thread) is the Gog and Magog on the map above the same as was mentioned in Revelations? It struck me that they are in the top right corner of a round map that has been rolled out flat. But the more I think about that sentence, "...and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war" the more I think Gog and Magog must be referring to something other than nations that are in the 4 corners of the earth.
 

sonoman

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#11
seems also that gog 'and' magogg was often referred to as gog 'of' magogg so thats not so simple either.

and I see alot of people puting way too much trust in old maps too forgeting that 'the map is not the territory' just like the written word is not the spoken so just as people take advantage with writing words, they also took advantage with drawing maps.
 

dreamtime

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#12
I am viewing this map on the British Library website and opening it in full screen. I can only read the larger print and I have given myself a headache trying to read the smaller print. I found the area you directed me to but that's it. Also, I am unfamiliar with this famous gate?

Anyway, I agree with your comment about the church and the remoteness of Gog and Magog. I also agree that there seems to be conflicting information being floated around about Tartaria. I don't think they were giants either so we seem to have a crucial piece of the puzzle missing.
To stay on point (of the thread) is the Gog and Magog on the map above the same as was mentioned in Revelations? It struck me that they are in the top right corner of a round map that has been rolled out flat. But the more I think about that sentence, "...and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war" the more I think Gog and Magog must be referring to something other than nations that are in the 4 corners of the earth.
gate.png

Gates of Alexander - Wikipedia

The Gates of Alexander was a legendary barrier supposedly built by Alexander the Great in the Caucasus to keep the uncivilized barbarians of the north (typically associated with Gog and Magog[1]) from invading the land to the south. The gates were a popular subject in medieval travel literature, starting with the Alexander Romance in a version from perhaps the 6th century.​
...​
During the Middle Ages, the Gates of Alexander story was included in travel literature such as the Travels of Marco Polo and the Travels of Sir John Mandeville. The identities of the nations trapped behind the wall are not always consistent, however; Mandeville claims Gog and Magog are really the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, who will emerge from their prison during the End Times and unite with their fellow Jews to attack the Christians. Polo speaks of Alexander's Iron Gates, but says the Comanians are the ones trapped behind it. He does mention Gog and Magog, however, locating them north of Cathay. Some scholars have taken this as an oblique and confused reference to the Great Wall of China, which he does not mention otherwise. The Gates of Alexander may represent an attempt by Westerners to explain stories from China of a great king building a great wall.[citation needed] Knowledge of Chinese innovations such as the compass and south-pointing chariot is known to have been diffused (and confused) across Eurasian trade routes.​
 
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whitewave

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#13
@dreamtime: "It points south because 15th-century compasses were south-pointing. "

How is that possible?Did we have a pole reversal after the 15th century?
 

sonoman

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#15
Hmm... I don't know.
me either but this guy has a very compelling take on the situation that included how and why the 365 day system came to be. no idea how accurate he is and dont share the same beliefs but have become aware of many new things because of him.
 

NorthHeavens

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#16
What if the god of the old testament is not who we thought he was and in fact is the opposite? What if "he" made promises to a certain people to do his bidding and they have been every since? And when a certain time has passed (a thousand years), the "good guy" will be freed to banish the bad ones...
I ma just saying that we are all talking about history being written by the winners- so why not the Bible too? So if you are the "bad guy", you have 1000 years to tell everyone that the good guy is Satan and when he comes back- don't believe him!
Maybe in the verse below, it originally read "...Which are in ONE of the 4 corners..."
“And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them” (Revelation 20:7-9 — ASV).

Check out the map attached.

Just a thought with which I go to sleep now, because here it is very late at night, what if the 1000 year old Friedensreich was already, and we are in the time in which Satan was released a second time. The Millennial Kingdom of Peace with Jesu as righteous and with him all the raptures from the first resurrection, or rapture, which are the time of these beautiful monumental buildings as well as on these ancient paintings.
That would explain another civilization before ours.
 
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BrokenAgate

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#17
All you have to do is read the Bible to know that the god described therein is very evil. The Cathars thought of the Old Testament god as a demiurge, an evil being who created the physical world. It is not hard to see why. And we know that the Bible has been rewritten, redacted, and tampered with so many times that it's impossible to know who wrote what, or how old the scriptures really are. "Word of God" is a meaningless phrase.
 

sonoman

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#18
All you have to do is read the Bible to know that the god described therein is very evil. The Cathars thought of the Old Testament god as a demiurge, an evil being who created the physical world. It is not hard to see why. And we know that the Bible has been rewritten, redacted, and tampered with so many times that it's impossible to know who wrote what, or how old the scriptures really are. "Word of God" is a meaningless phrase.
all you have to do is go to the earliest texts and translate it yourself to see that there are multiple gods and lords in the bible.

how do you 'know' what the cathars thought?

its all hearsay, all history is. once we take this into consideration we can think more like allegedly Plato's Socrates. maybe even escape this cave! lol
 

anotherlayer

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#19
The bible is most definitely read incorrectly. It's a story of how the evil wins over the good. I'm pretty sure Lucifer is the dude I wanna have a beer with...
 

KorbenDallas

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#20
I will offer an additional avenue to consider. The iron wall to hold off the people of Gog snd Magog has to be something rather special. A simple wall between two hills would not be able to keep them G and M on the other side. They would simply walk around. The wall had to be something much grander, greater, bigger, godlier....

Here is where I will suggest to look deeper into this - Alexander / Iskander / Dhul-Qarnayn... he of the two horns - issue.

Could it be that Baal (Satan by some stretch?) is the one we are talking about here?

362C22D6-685E-4B7A-BDA5-B327EEBA715A.jpeg

And could it be that Baal is also the Jupiter aka Zeus aka Zeus-Ammun?

982F364E-002B-45BB-945E-84866B82A46A.jpeg
What did Zeus do to the Titans?

Zeus with an army of divine-allies, made war on the Titanes and cast them into the pit of Tartaros (Tartarus).

There are many explanations of what (or who) Tartarus is, or was but...

Tartaros was secured with a surrounding wall of bronze set with a pair of gates guarded by the hundred-handed Hekatonkheires.

It just could be that this wall was no regular man made object, and the Gog and Magog are not our regular beings. Just some food for thought this is.
 

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