Ironclad ships - another example of Tartarian technology?

KorbenDallas

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#1
This is a build up on my other related topic: Our civilization did not build Titanic, Olympic or Britannic. Theirs did. Was it the Tartarian one?

The idea behind these series of threads is that if we can not explain what technology was used, we need to start asking questions. If we have an object, which clearly, and officially existed, but there was no known technology to build it, our dogmatic history can be safely thrown into a dumpster.

French Ironclad Redoutable - the "no real info" ship
There is no useful information about the construction of this ship. Wikipedia page (as well as the rest of the internet) has some worthless generic info, with nothing about construction. It does not even mention who the designer/engineer was. It took a couple of seconds to figure out who allegedly designed her, but the name with no accompanying information is pretty worthless.

French_ironclad_Redoutable_1.jpg French_ironclad_redoutable_2.jpg Le_Redoutable_(1889).jpg

This 95 m (311 ft 8 in) long ship was launched on 18 September 1876. She was designed by some "no photo, no wiki page, no real info" naval engineer named M. de Bussy.

m._de_bussy.png

* * * * *
The above presented images are large enough to notice, that there are no observable rivets used in securing the hull plates. The ship was constructed in in 1876, which is 50 years prior to the first known welded hull (1926). The official History of Welding in Shipbuilding gives a much later date of 1941.
To speed up and improve production, shipyards started using templates to manufacture prefabricated ships and replacing riveting with welding. The 2,710 cargo ships they built between 1941 and 1945 were called “Liberty Ships.” They were credited with helping to win the war.
Another interesting moment to note about Ironclad Redoutable is her two horizontal two cylinder engines (8 oval boilers) producing 6,700 horsepower, which allows for 14.66 knots. Is this enough to power to propel a 310 foot ship weighing God knows how much, I do not know. May be this is why we are seeing those sail masts. Honestly, the hull is in such a sharp contrast with all the "Christmas toys" hanging off of it, that the question of whether all this was the originally design appears a logical question to ask

The HULL - the QUESTION

> > > What was used to assemble the hull? If it was welding, how come our welding history protesting out loud? If rivets were used, how invisible can they be? And if it was indeed welding - WHO built the ship?

* * *

KD Summary: In my opinion, most of the ironclads (if not all - and there were a lot of them) have nothing to do with progressive development of our technology. In other words, they came from nowhere. Another way of saying this would be something like this: we operated these ships, but we did not build them. I do not know who built them. Could it be the Great Tartary? May be...

And these ships did not come alone. Along they brought the tech, for we went from this in 1865 (Dahlgren Gun)

Dahlgren_gun.jpg
to this in 1876 (Redoutable Barbeta)

Redoutable-barbette.jpg

Meanwhile our technology of the times would definitely allow to attach a turret like below to otherwise beautifully constructed (by someone else) ship (USS Monitor in this case). I bet, those guys in the image were saying, "God, that looks ugly..."

crew_turret.jpg
More about "there have to be rivets but I see none" is here: Our civilization did not build Titanic, Olympic or Britannic. Theirs did. Was it the Tartarian one?
 

The Wack

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#3
14 inch armor plating... a cannon ball would just bounce off it surely... and then she'd probably ring like a struck bell.

Another interesting find KD, thanks for sharing.

I was prompted by this post and the ss great eastern post, to try to find out a little about steel/iron chain (anchor) making in those days... not much to be found. I am stuck using a tablet for internet for a while, its great for browsing the web but no so good for researching as a pc or laptop, but you have got me looking and thinking.

Apparently G. Washington had blacksmiths bang an iron chain together in 1770's that had 200+ pound links and was ridiculously long. I'll try to find it again and see if i can get enough info to work out how heavy it would of been (he supposedly buoyed it across a harbour to stop english ships).
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#4
Going to the very first reported battle of the ironclads: The Battle of Hampton Roads. In 1862 USS Monitor fought CSS Virginia (Merrimac).

THE_CSS_VIRGINIA_AND_THE_USS_MONITOR.jpg

QUESTION: What was the precursor to the emergence of the ironclads prior to this Civil War battle? Was there any progressive development of the technology, or they simply decided to start building ironclads, which look nothing like known ship designs of the time?

Monitor_model.jpg

We, somehow, go from ships like HMS Agamemnon built in 1852...

HMS_Agamemnon.jpg

To whole fleets of ships looking like that in 1862

ironclads_civil_war.jpg ironclads_civil_war_1.jpg
CSS Virginia1862.jpg

I strongly doubt we have any evidence of the development of this technology. It just pops up.

* * * * *
And separately about the Civil War itself. I start thinking that this war had nothing to do with the well known reasons. The United States Civil War could just be a part of that Global War after which the world setup was changed forever.
 

The Wack

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#5
This anchor and chain apparently date to the 1800's, Delaware river.

Anchor was pulled up a few years ago, 9 ton 20+ feet long!

Surely the chain pictured was used to pull it up.?during the salvage... it looks welded.

Edit to add, i cant link easily on tablet, but google "9t anchor delaware" to find one or two 2012 articles showing
7941595.jpg 5193265.jpg
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#6
With smaller items it could be the case of being forged from wrought iron. I'm not an expert though.
 
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#7
That Redoutable looks almost other worldly in its cool looking sleek design. And look at that turret covered in rivets! The lack of any info regarding the construction of such an outstanding vessel, certainly (once again!) points to yet another cover up. Maybe they got lost or eaten by the ship's mascot dog?
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#8
Funny how those Civil War artillery engineers failed to pay attention and missed the Industrial Revolution, while shipbuilders were "inventing" at full speed.

civil_war_cannon.jpg

There are a couple of murals dedicated to the Civil War battleships at the National Civil War Naval Museum in Columbus, Georgia. Looks pretty unreal, considering that we are talking about 1861-1865, don't you think?

Mural-B-National-Civil-War-Naval-Museum-Columbus-GA.jpg

Mural-A-National-Civil-War-Naval-Museum-Columbus-GA.jpg

This anchor and chain apparently date to the 1800's, Delaware river.
Anchor was pulled up a few years ago, 9 ton 20+ feet long!
An interesting article, yep: 9-Ton Navy Anchor From The 1800s Snares Barge

Was surprised to see that nobody figured out what ship this monster used to belong to.
 

humanoidlord

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#10
i always found weird how we went from 99% wood ships to iron ships outta nowhere
also i think we need a "strange ships" forum, there are some very bizzare submarines too

Going to the very first reported battle of the ironclads: The Battle of Hampton Roads. In 1862 USS Monitor fought CSS Virginia (Merrimac).


QUESTION: What was the precursor to the emergence of the ironclads prior to this Civil War battle? Was there any progressive development of the technology, or they simply decided to start building ironclads, which look nothing like known ship designs of the time?


We, somehow, go from ships like HMS Agamemnon built in 1852...

To whole fleets of ships looking like that in 1862

I strongly doubt we have any evidence of the development of this technology. It just pops up.

* * * * *
And separately about the Civil War itself. I start thinking that this war had nothing to do with the well known reasons. The United States Civil War could just be a part of that Global War after which the world setup was changed forever.
wow, those ships are very similar to modern radar stealth ships, the only difference are that they are more angular
i smell something here

Funny how those Civil War artillery engineers failed to pay attention and missed the Industrial Revolution, while shipbuilders were "inventing" at full speed.


There are a couple of murals dedicated to the Civil War battleships at the National Civil War Naval Museum in Columbus, Georgia. Looks pretty unreal, considering that we are talking about 1861-1865, don't you think?


An interesting article, yep: 9-Ton Navy Anchor From The 1800s Snares Barge

Was surprised to see that nobody figured out what ship this monster used to belong to.
ironclad submarines
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:o_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O:sick::sick::sick::sick::sick::sick:

Some of those craft look similar to these!

Navy_ship_1.jpg Navy_ship_2.jpg Navy_ship_3.jpg
lol somebody beat me to it
but yeah there is something here
you know maybe we should check the story of the radar, just in case....
 
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#11
If you took the masts and rigging off of the Redoutable, it would look like something out of that film The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
Or maybe out of a Jules Verne type fantasy.
 

ISeenItFirst

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#12
Those US bars in the chain certainly look welded to me. Only issue there is that wrought iron takes very high temps to forge weld. Higher than steel. It takes a similar temperature to forge weld steel as it does to just forge wrought, and much higher to forge weld WI.
Would love to see the equipment and processes used to forge an anchor like that in the 1800s.
They must be WI if they survived that long in the water, most steels would be a reddish stain on the bottom by now. WI actually has a decent corrosion resistance due to the slag in it.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#13
Hmm, great point. I did not evrn think about the chain and the anchor sitting in the water for 200 years. The condition is immaculate, and is not in line with my expectations for something which stayed submerged for that long.
 

ISeenItFirst

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#14
Wrought iron is pretty tough stuff. I'm sure these were cleaned up. Problem with wrought iron is the immense heat it takes to do anything with it. Thinking of the anchor: Best I can tell so far, the method would have been to keep on forge welding more WI to the piece until it got to shape. Forge welding WI is not an easy skill even with very consistent metal composition. Both the piece being added and the base piece would need to be well over (Well Over) 2000 degrees F to weld, and you'd have to find a way to keep it from absorbing too much carbon from the fuel.

(Iron, especially at those temps, will readily absorb carbon, which will lower the melting point of the iron below that of the slag, which causes all kinds of problems for forge welding. Typically the slag will act as a welding flux for WI, as it melts before the WI does, and coats the iron preventing oxidation.)

EDIT. Scratch all that. This is even more confusing. Found some more info on that anchor, just as I was beginning to wrap my head around a way it could have been made mid 1800s.

IT IS WOOD! Wrapped in copper. That's the official story.
 
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The Wack

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#16
When i stumbled on the anchor/chain article i expected to find lots of follow on about it... at least by a maritime museum or the town history buffs... but i didn't find anything from a quick search or two so went back to research about the Great Eastern some more.

If you do find what ship lost it, update me/us please.... what a monster of a pick-anchor!
 

ISeenItFirst

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#17
It's not gonna be a ship anchor but a mooring anchor. Would have been connected to some sort of buoys that you could tie up to.
IT does look like copper that has been under water for some time. Very dark oxidation coating. As for the wood, it's probably still there from the looks of it, and that it still weighs 9t and that a barge anchor didn't tear it up.
 

Onijunbei

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#18
Been drinking... Forgive me... What if they knew how to hydrogen weld.. And then the energy barrons covered it up or something.. But basically just sending current through water separating the hydrogen and oxygen gas and welding with that...
 

ISeenItFirst

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#19
Very good thoughts. Don't know much about hydrogen welding, except that it sounds like inventing a drag racing car to get to your mailbox. Also, think you'd need some tungsten. Gonna be super hot, but its still arc welding, and you'd need a tough (heat resistant) electrode, (tungsten). Not that tungsten was unavailable, but seems (like arc welding and hydrogen arc welding) a 20th century thing (officially).

Tungsten is interesting on its own. But all of these things seem to have more of the same. People with plenty of "assigned" discoveries and accomplishement and about zero else to go with it. People who may have been a place or two a time or two, but otherwise ghosts with impressive resumes. Not to say one way or the other, but the theme is ubiquitous. Maybe if they had their "face" in a "book".... Well that's another topic.

Cheers! 🍺🍺🍺
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#20
I think we have a technological mismatch. A number of hulls do not appear to be put together with rivets (the only available technology known to us at the time). If that is indeed the case, than we only have two questions:
  • was the welding technology available (but for whatever reason we are not supposed to know about it)?
  • did we inherit the ships from someone else?
 
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