Our civilization did not build Titanic, Olympic or Britannic. Theirs did. Was it the Tartarian one?

KorbenDallas

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Once again, tackling a well known topic, I risk to sound ridiculous but hold your judgement till you have some material objections to make. Jumping ahead I will say, that the issue of "we did not build this ship" extends way beyond these three ships. In reality, this is one of those instances, where I would like this community to find a conventional explanation for the question I will pose. In other words, I would love to be proved wrong on this one, for we have videos, photos, blueprints, and what not.

The question I will pose is this - what did they use to connect 2.5 ton hull plates to each other? Rivets, invisible rivets, welding or glue?

superglue_1.png

There was a lot published about RMS Titanic and its two sisters, RMS Olympic and HMHS Britannic. For those who do not know, or their knowledge is superficial, below is a little recap.

All_three_Olympic-class_ocean_liners.png

The White Star Line faced an increasing challenge from its main rivals Cunard, which had recently launched the Lusitania and the Mauretania - the fastest passenger ships then in service - and the German lines Hamburg America and Norddeutscher Lloyd. The company sought an upgrade in their fleet primarily in response to the Cunard giants but also to replace their oldest pair of passenger ships still in service, being the SS Teutonic of 1889 and SS Majestic of 1890. All three Olympic-class liners were built by Harland and Wolff (Belfast). The plan to build these three ships was realized by naval architects Thomas Andrews and Alexander Carlisle.

Thomas_Andrews_titanic.jpg AlexanderCarlisle_titanic.jpg
Alexander Carlisle got off the project in 1910 due to health problems. Thomas Andrews died on Titanic when she hit an iceberg on 14 April 1912. His body was never recovered.


RMS Olympic

RMS_Olympic_1.jpg

Although Olympic and Titanic were nearly identical, and were based on the same core design, a few alterations were made to Titanic (and later on Britannic) based on experience gained from Olympic's first year in service. The most noticeable of these was that the forward half of Titanic's A Deck promenade was enclosed by a steel screen with sliding windows, to provide additional shelter, whereas Olympic's promenade deck remained open along its whole length. This was a major contributor to Titanic's increased gross tonnage of 46,328 tons over Olympic's 45,324 tons, which allowed Titanic to claim the title of largest ship in the world.
  • Laid down: 16 December 1908
  • Launched: 20 October 1910
  • Completed: 31 May 1911
  • In Service: 1911
  • Out of Service: 1935
  • Hull plates held by: 3,000,000+ rivets
  • Fate: Retired at Southampton after 24 years service & scrapped. Superstructure dismantled at Jarrow, England, and the hull at Inverkeithing, Scotland.
  • Wiki link

RMS Titanic

RMS_Titanic_1.jpg

Titanic was 882 feet 9 inches (269.06 m) long with a maximum breadth of 92 feet 6 inches (28.19 m). Her total height, measured from the base of the keel to the top of the bridge, was 104 feet (32 m). She measured 46,328 gross register tons and with a draught of 34 feet 7 inches (10.54 m), she displaced 52,310 tons.
  • Laid down: 31 March 1909
  • Launched: 31 May 1911
  • Completed: 2 April 1912
  • In Service: 10 April 1912
  • Out of Service: 15 April 1912
  • 2,000 Hull plates held by: 3,000,000+ rivets
  • Fate: Hit an iceberg 11:40 p.m. (ship's time) 14 April 1912 on her maiden voyage and sank 2 h 40 min later on 15 April 1912.
  • Wiki link
The 2,000 hull plates were single pieces of rolled steel plate, mostly up to 6 feet (1.8 m) wide and 30 feet (9.1 m) long and weighing between 2.5 and 3 tons. Commercial oxy-fuel and electric arc welding methods, ubiquitous in fabrication today, were still in their infancy; like most other iron and steel structures of the era, the hull was held together with over three million iron and steel rivets, which by themselves weighed over 1,200 tons. They were fitted using hydraulic machines or were hammered in by hand.
In other words, they did not use welding to put hulls together back in 1912 (or 1913, 14, 15, or 16).

HMHS Britannic

HMHS-Britannic_1.jpg

The dimensions of Britannic were similar to those of her sister ships, but her dimensions were altered whilst still on the building stocks after the Titanic disaster. With a gross tonnage of 48,158, she surpassed her sisters in terms of size (volume), but that did not make her the largest passenger ship in service at that time; the German SS Vaterland was significantly bigger.
  • Laid down: 30 November 1911
  • Launched: 26 February 1914
  • Completed: 12 December 1915
  • In Service: 23 December 1915
  • Out of Service: 21 November 1916
  • Fate: Sank after an explosion on 21 November 1916 near Kea in the Aegean Sea
  • Wiki link
For our little investigation we will need one additional ship. We will use USS Northland.

USS Northland

Northland_1.jpg
USS Northland was a cruising class of gunboat especially designed for Arctic operations that served in World War II and later served in the Israeli Navy. She was the last cruising cutter built for the Coast Guard equipped with a sailing rig.
  • Laid down: 26 August 1926
  • Launched: 5 February 1927
  • Commissioned: 7 May 1927
  • Out of Service: 1938–1939
  • Fate: Sold 3 January 1947
  • Wiki link
She was structurally reinforced to withstand hull pressures of 100 psi and lined with cork for warmth. One feature used in the construction was the welding of the hull rather than riveting; this was done for strength and was not a common practice in 1926.
Essentially, USS Northland was one of the first officially welded ships. You are welcome to find an earlier one, and I will gladly update this post with your finding.
To speed up and improve production, shipyards started using templates to manufacture prefabricated ships and replacing riveting with welding. The 2,710 cargo ships they built between 1941 and 1945 were called “Liberty Ships.” They were credited with helping to win the war.
Construction of Titanic
RSM Titanic is obviously the most publicized ship out of the three. Apart from its ill fate and the beautiful name, it is open for speculation why the most videos and photos pertain to Titanic, and not Olympic, for the latter was the first one to get launched. One way or the other, we have plenty of photos and YouTube videos of Titanic being built... or do we?

In reality, we only have a few stages of the construction of RMS Titanic. They are:
  • Keel Laying
keel_laying_titanic.jpg


  • Construction of the Frames
construction_of_frames_titanic.jpg


  • Construction of the Hull
titanic_construction_hull_1.jpg installing_rivets_in_titanic.jpg titanic_construction_hull.jpg rms_titanic___construction.png titanic_construction_hull_2.jpg
You are welcome to look for those stages yourself, or here is a set of Titanic Construction Links for your convenience.
Where are the Rivets?
Images Source
Titanic_rivets_no_rivets_2.jpg Titanic_rivets_no_rivets.jpg Titanic_last_anchor_rasing.jpg


Rivets are very much visible, and distinguishable.

Titanic_rivets_no_rivets_1.jpg


Titanic Hull Rivets

The 401 Rivet is 3 3/4″ long, with a shank diameter of 1″ and head diameter of 1 3/4″. Each one weighs just over 1 pound.
Titanic. Ship Number. 401. Vessel Type. Passenger Ship. Built. Belfast. Yard. North Yard.​

Titanic_hull_rivet.jpg Titanic_rivets.JPG
Rivets dot the surface of the "Big Piece," the largest recovered section of the Titanic's hull. The 15-ton section of the doomed luxury liner is part of a touring display of more than 300 relics from the ship called "Titanic"

rms_titanic_the_big_piece.jpg titanic-big-piece.jpg titanic-artifact-exhibition-big-piece.jpg
With all the video, and photographic evidence we have where is the Titanic, or Olympic or Britannic at the stage where their hulls are 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 complete? How did they attach those bottom 2.5-3 tons, 6 foot by 300 foot still plates? Did they weld them together, or did they glue them together? And why did they have to use rivets above the unriveted portion?

Flush Rivets
There is an interesting couple of paragraphs in the 1868 book titled "Iron Ship-building, with Practical Illustrations". It could almost solve the mystery if it was not for the lack of evidence of such an "invisible" flush rivet. If you can find what this particular rivet looks like, please post a link, or upload a picture. Also, if you can find any mentioning of the flush rivets in the Titanic's, or any other ships construction, please share your finding. For right now, the only official rivets are the ones displayed above. Below you can see two pages covering these "flush rivets".

flush_rivet_1.jpg flush_rivet_2.jpg

After all, how invisible can iron rivets be?

Titanic_last_anchor_rasing.jpg Great_Eastern_Leviathan_hull.jpg

Where are the rivets on Olympic?
Source
Olympic propeller shot. This is a huge image you can zoom in on. You will find a few rivets in there closer to the rudder. The remainder is mystery.

Olympic's_propellers.jpg

Where are the rivets on Britannic?
Source

Britannic_hull.jpg Britannic_hull_1.jpg Britannic_hull_3.jpg Britannic_hull_4.jpg

RMS Lusitania, 1910 ... a few rivets?
Source
Unknown_ship_no_rivets.jpg

It gets better. Where are the rivets on this 1856 ship:

Where are the rivets on this 1856 SS Great Eastern a.k.a. Leviathan
Source
Great_Eastern_Leviathan_5.jpg Great_Eastern_Leviathan_15.jpg Great_Eastern_Leviathan_hull.jpg

Evidentiary King - USS New Hampshire - 1906
Here is a 28.6 MB TIFF image link to a huge image of this ship. If you can find a rivet here, I would like to hear about it. What you will find there is a few of the seams looking just like welding seams look.

USS_New_Hampshire_c1910.jpg

* * * * *

Finding close enough images of those early 20th century "high-tech marvels of their time" is hard. But they are out there, and sometimes they pose questions. There are multiple videos out there which show ships being built, like this one of supposedly RMS Olympic... or it could be 1930 RMS Queen Mary, or any other ship for that matter. Those videos show something and nothing.

Weird Stuff

We do have a few contradicting images showing both, rivets and no rivets like these two images of the RMS Olympic propeller area. One clearly shows the lack of the rivets, the other one shows rivets present. What can this inconsistency tell us? The rivets on the first image are visible from 10 miles away. The second image displays no rivets, even if you soom in to the point of seeing the imperfections of the still plates.

Olympic-Propeller.jpg Olympic's_propellers.jpg

I present a simple question, if rivets were not used, and welding was not available around 1912 (definitely was not in 1856 for SS Great Eastern), how were those plates attached to each other in the unriveted areas? Superglue was invented in 1942, so they could not use that.

In Reference to Rivet Visibility - they are visible
RMS Oceanic (1st image) - 1899 - same welding question, but rivets portion are visible.
rms_oceanic_launch.png rivets_visible.jpg rivets_visible_1.JPG rivets_visible_3.jpg

Propeller Story

Additionally, you will not find a name attached to the invention of a VPP (variable pitch propeller). General Wiki link on propellers is here. All three of our Olympic-class ships had 2 Variable pitch propellers, and 1 Fixed Pitch Propeller. I talked about the difference between the VPP and FPP in the article about SS Great Eastern. In a nutshell the below two images show the difference between VPP and FPP.
  • Variable Pitch Propeller - the blades rotate via complex mechanism inside the hub
variable-pitch.jpg DDR.png

  • Fixed Pitch Propeller - the blades are permanently attached (welded if you will) to the hub
Voroshilov_cruiser_propeller_at_the_Museum_on_Sapun_Mountain.jpg
Now think about it.
  • Telegraph inventor: Samuel Morse
  • Radio inventor: Guglielmo Marconi (Popov if you want)
  • Telephone inventor: Bell and Meucci
  • Light Bulb inventor: Edison
  • This, and that, and all of the above inventor: Tesla
  • Variable Pitch Propeller inventor: WHO?
* * * * *
KD Hypothesis: Starting with the mid-19th Century, and ending with approximately 1917-1920s, Britain, and Germany (possibly USA, and France as well) acquired (through military involvement) a number of the Tartarian Ships of superior quality. The Grand Tartary was obviously destroyed, and wiped out from history. Not being able to use the ships the way they were (military induced damage, or technological mismatch - Titanic's electrical plant was capable of producing more power than an average city power station of the time), the victors (or the survivors, or vultures) had to repair, refurbish, and adjust them to their technological level (coal fuel, etc). For that purpose dry docks were constructed. Captured ships were adjusted in those docks. Ships originally had no funnels, due to different "cleaner" fuel used to power their steam engines. Funnels were installed to accommodate hundreds of tons of ash emitted by the readjusted engines.

Poor understanding of the acquired machinery meant multiple operational errors, and consequent short life span of these ships.

the-building-of-titanic.jpg

Interiors. Interiors were worthy of the Tartarian architecture (for those who knows of what I am talking about).

DiningRoomOfTheVaterland-500.jpg GrandSalon-Vaterland-500.jpg Lounge.jpg Saloon_on_the_olympic.JPG Saloon_on_the_olympic_1.jpg Saloon_on_the_S.S._Great_Eastern1.jpg Saloon_on_the_Titanic.jpg Saloon_on_the_Titanic_1.jpg Saloon_on_the_Titanic_2.jpg

* * *
That is unless ship welding was available in 1856, and 1912. Otherwise what did they use to hold those plates together - invisible rivets? Super strong glue could also be an option, I guess.
 

aaww1979

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#2
Keen observation. Makes me re-think the disaster of hitting an iceberg, it could be that the hull fell apart because they used an experimental technique. If someone had underwritten this they may kept it a secret. I could have been a proof of concept in new hull design.
 

ISeenItFirst

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#3
Very interesting post. I have seen the Titanic (or not the Titanic) exhibit, although I always assumed much of the story of these ships was hidden to cover the insurance fraud and murder. They killed quite a few birds with that stone or iceburg as it were.
Keen observation. Makes me re-think the disaster of hitting an iceberg, it could be that the hull fell apart because they used an experimental technique. If someone had underwritten this they may kept it a secret. I could have been a proof of concept in new hull design.
The "Titanic" Hull fell apart because it wasn't the Titanic. The Olympic had suffered a collision in the harbor and the repairs of which would have bankrupted the already failing White Star company. They pulled the old switcheroo, got a fat insurance policy, loaded up the boat with undesireables, (Several key persons resisting the implementation of the Federal Reserve System for a start), and aimed it at iceburg. Or not, either way, the ship was going down one way or the other. Been quite a while since i looked into this, but I had been more than thoroughly convinced at the time.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#4
Very interesting post. I have seen the Titanic (or not the Titanic) exhibit, although I always assumed much of the story of these ships was hidden to cover the insurance fraud and murder. They killed quite a few birds with that stone or iceburg as it were.

The "Titanic" Hull fell apart because it wasn't the Titanic.
Are you talking about that 400 vs 401 prop?
 

ISeenItFirst

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#5
That part is new to me, but after a brief look, it sure makes sense. I think it more likely the nameplates were switched rather than the props, especially if one was 3 bladed and the other 4 bladed, and even more so if they were both variable pitch.
Speaking of variable pitch, while there is no proper evidence of the invention of variable pitch ship propellers, an airplane propeller having variable pitch was patented in 1922 if memory serves, almost a decade after these ships were built, and I can find no other evidence of them having been used. In fact, it doesn't seem all too useful when the rpm can be modulated instead. Seems mostly used nowadays in tugs and harbor craft.
Now, if they had a power source originally that could output high power with a consistent rpm, a variable pitch makes perfect sense.

Now supposedly, again, if memory serves, the main drive shaft was damaged in the oceanic collision and taken from the Titanic which was still under construction to get it going again. Really convenient time to pull a switcheroo.

The ships designer went down on The Titanic as well I believe.
 

humanoidlord

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#6
hmmm maybe it was a still unknow super-strong polymer?
also i am blaffed how many ships have those anomalies, i thought the great eastern was the only one!
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#7
The ships designer went down on The Titanic as well I believe.
He sure did. Most of the "appointed" people die, meet some ridiculous last days of thrir lives. Look at what happened to poor Great Eastern's Brunel, or Tesla, who died alone in his room while, allegedly, penniless.

pre-1920 Russian Submarines

While on this topic, I ran into this 1917 Russian Imperial Submarine "ORLAN", class "Bars-class submarine".

submarine-fleet-of-the-russian-empire-ORLAN.jpg
Or this 1915 Russian Imperial Submarine "NARVAL", class "Narval"

submarine-fleet-of-the-russian-empire-Narval.jpg
This one appears to have a welding seam, but it is not possible, right?
Or this 1917 Russian Imperial Submarine "AG-15", class "American Holland"

submarine-fleet-of-the-russian-empire-AG15.jpg submarine-fleet-of-the-russian-empire-AG15_1.jpg
Are those supposed to be riveted or glued? Welding was not an option, as far as the official history says.
 

ISeenItFirst

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#9
I hadn't seen that before. I prefer to read this type of information, but I have now watched it. Certainly adds more circumstantial evidence to the case for the switcheroo. Don't have anything to add at this time, except that it aligns with what I remember from my research.
 

WildFire2000

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#10
I've read most of the information regarding the switch up from the Olympic and the Titanic, and unless someone in the records departments and many other offices involved switched up the registry numbers for both ships completely, it's not likely to have happened in the way it's presented, especially if you take into account these other ships and the deeper, more odd mystery of our technological advancement.

Do I believe there's something SUPER weird going on with the passenger manifest, the only real rich perishing being the ones with that were resisting the foundation of the FED? Definitely.

As an aside, there are major oddities in the eras of history that our official records and portrayals, a strange mishmash of low and high tech that really doesn't fit, especially considering the official histories given for the various inventions. We have steam engines being extremely prevalent along with coal power and horses, lanterns and other fire-based lighting existing along side electric cars and trams, charging stations, electric street lights and other 'modern' marvels. We're supposed to believe that it's because of the 'Industrial Revolution' but I find that explanation to be highly suspect. These accounts do not add-up appropriately, and there's no REAL way to solve the riddles, especially when most everyone you talk to refuses to even look at the evidence that peppers the historical record.
 

ISeenItFirst

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#11
There was lots of high strangeness involved with the accident, and to me it only makes sense with the switch, fraud and murder. Although, to be fair, it seems they intended to save as many people as they could.
The other ships, well those are quandaries as well. I was interested in just how much steel was produced during those years. Seems the great Eastern would have needed most of the steel produced in the US in the 1850s, but by the time we get to the 1910s with the Bessemer process we were producing much more, and seems more reasonable, but only by comparison.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#12
Seems the great Eastern would have needed most of the steel produced in the US in the 1850s, but by the time we get to the 1910s with the Bessemer process we were producing much more, and seems more reasonable, but only by comparison.
They claim that SS Great Eastern's hull was an all-iron construction. And of course they immediately went for the double hull, like it was a natural thing to do :)
 

ISeenItFirst

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#13
They claim that SS Great Eastern's hull was an all-iron construction. And of course they immediately went for the double hull, like it was a natural thing to do :)
Well, I didn't think of that. Interesting. Seems information on wrought iron in seawater is slim to none. My experiences tell me it shouldn't last long without some good coatings, inside and out. Rust is incredibly powerful. When you see diagonal cracks from the corners of windows, that is where the rusted steel support above the windows is lifting the entire wall above the windows. I have seen sited over 10,000 psi force exerted by confined rust. These iron ships would need to be coated inside and out very often, as 10,000 psi should easily pop a rivet.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#14
It’s fairly obvious they did not build the Great Eastern. Clearly they can’t say they used still due to the time the ship was acquired by them. We hsve a made up story to legitimize the construction of the ship, though at the very most they did some repairs in place.

The ship had no visible rivets, and the hull was most likely made of still indeed. The invisible flush rivet virsion, is hard to believe for I’m yet to see what such a thing looks like. Even when we talk about much later produced ships.

And Brunel himself is a mystery, this ship is not the only quesionable object he “produced”. Just look at his bridges for example.

7D5E22A8-F015-4B7D-ACC9-44219BE2206D.jpeg E9B6AF97-4BB5-44B0-B377-0062061956CA.jpeg
 

mythstifieD

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#15
1200-152332-titanic-facts.jpg


Are there photos of smoke from all 4?

If so, what was really going on in the fourth?
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#16
I doubt we can find a definitive running of the fourth funnel. Enhancing the looks by the means of installing the 4th funnel is suspicious.

titanic_funnels.jpg
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#19
Awesome videos, especially the first one. It just reinforced my confidence that we did not build these ships.

Once again, we go from the laying of the keel to almost completed ships. This lack of progression images explains why a portion of Titanic was riveted with huge ugly rivets. Those were our technology, and the other portion of the ship was glued-welded, by those who developed and built all this.

I think they could only publish some of the pictures, the non revealing ones. The ones that were showing too much tech naver made into these books, or anywhere else for that matter. I’m yet to see a picture where we have 1/4 of either of the ships built.
 

PrincepAugus

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#20
Combining primitive tech with high tech is a very interesting topic for me. I would think that many of these advanced iron ships have only the lower hull and other parts of it uncovered, then placed onto the docks and rebuilt to the best of their abilities for ocean travel. Albeit not as advanced as if those ships were used in the first place.

Letting my imagination run even more, imagine the times of the Tartarian and other majestic large empires in the days. These ships would be looking like modern ships but darkly colored and more steampunk/diselpunk looking.
 
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