Questionable antiquity of the "ancient" statues

KorbenDallas

Negotiator
Messages
2,630
Likes
7,132
#1
Wanted to ask for the community participation on this one. The idea is to show that ancient statues could be not as ancient as they seem to be. Personally, I am fairly convinced that this is the case but a little visual representation would make the case just so much stronger.

Basically I wanted to offer our StolenHistory.ORG community members to do an easy and simple investigation of their own. European museums are supposedly packed with ancient Greek, and Roman statues. Some of them are more famous than the other ones. Those statues are an important part of the Ancient History preached to us by our scientific community. Let us see when those statues were located and presented to this world.

I believe that every single statue, starting with the busts of Plato was located between 1438 and now. A reasonable person would ask a reasonable question similar to, "Why is that?" May be there is a simple answer to this question, like they were produced after 1438.

Our knowledge of the ancient history started with Poggio Bracciolini who discovered quite a few manuscripts in 1416, as well as the "discovery" of the Plato's works circa 1438 (unrelated to Bracciolini). Since then, I believe, this world has not seen any originals of anything.

I believe that all the works attributed to the Ancients were created after approximately 1438. Various documents could be scientifically dated prior to this time, but none of the actual statues were discovered prior to 1438-ish, or thereabouts.

I will start with a couple of statues. Now and then I plan on adding a few more to this first post. If you choose to participate in this little experiment, it will go much faster. Your findings will be added to the first post as well.


Official claim: created 130 - 100 BC
Discovered: 1820

The original Greek bronze, allegedly made circa 460–450 BC is claimed to be lost but the work is known through numerous Roman copies.

Discobolus_in_National_Roman_Museum_Palazzo_Massimo_alle_Terme.JPG
The Discobolus Palombara, the first copy of this famous
sculpture to have been discovered

Official claim: created 130 - 100 BC
Discovered: 1781 (the earliest located)

Official claim: created in 2nd century BC
Discovered: 1863
4. Laocoön and His Sons
Laocoön Group
Laocoon_and_His_Sons.jpg
Official claim: created 200 BC - 70s AD
Discovered: 1506

Official Claim: created 1345 B.C.
Discovered: 1912


Official Claim: created 470 - 440 B.C.
Discovered: 1926

Official Claim: created 210 - 209 B.C.
Discovered: 1974


Official Claim: created 1st century B.C.
Discovered: 1959

Official Claim: created 1st or 2nd century B.C.
Discovered: 1556

Official Claim: created 460 - 450 B.C.
Discovered: 1972
* * * down - no photo to save room * * *
format:
created year / discovered year​

11. Tusculum Portrait: 50-40 B.C. / 1825
12. The Orator: 110-90 B.C. / 1566
13. Scipio Africanus: 1st century B.C. / 1750-65
14. Statue of Antinous: 130 A.D. / 1894
15. Farnese Hercules: 216 A.D. / 1546
 

aaww1979

New member
Messages
14
Likes
29
#2
I would imagine some are fake and not of ancient origins. Diamonds can be made in a lab as well as oil. Fake dinosaur bones sit in many museum because they can also be fossilized in a lab in a short time. Wine can be aged artificially. People artificially age wood to give it an old appearance.

If there is money to be made someone has already found a way to cheat the system.
 

CyborgNinja

Well-known member
Messages
184
Likes
637
#3
The statue of Laocoön and His Sons
Laocoon_and_His_Sons.jpg
...also called the Laocoön Group (Italian: Gruppo del Laocoonte), has been one of the most famous ancient sculptures ever since it was excavated in Rome in 1506 and placed on public display in the Vatican, where it remains. It is very likely the same statue praised in the highest terms by the main Roman writer on art, Pliny the Elder.

They call this one a reproduction. It's never openly state why buy I'm guessig because it's in such good nick. How could Pliny the Elder circa BC speak of a statue that looks to be no more that 600 years old. Therefore they label this a replica of an older example.
 

Hardy

Well-known member
Messages
67
Likes
267
#4
Nefertiti Bust

nofretete.PNG

Official Claim: The work is believed to have been crafted in 1345 B.C. by the sculptor Thutmose.

Discovered: 1912 /public exposure even first 1924

English Wiki says "believed", German Wiki says 'It is so'-in this case English Wiki is more 'honest'. I believe it's either a forgery or
a very much younger artwork.
 

gregory5564

Active member
Messages
37
Likes
141
#5
Essentially, nearly everything we know about ancient history comes from 1750-1900. The real conceit is that, when we are learning ancient history in schools, the teachers do not reveal to us the lopsidedness of the primary sources. We are made to believe that every claim within the history-books is equally well-documented, rather than being a mixture of fact and speculation.

Even though we have reams of material left over from the Reformation era, we don't find 1500s history-textbooks concerning Classical Rome or Classical Athens. Given the level of respect at the time for Classics, it would have made sense that, when Martin Luther was growing up, there were a selection of historical and archaeological textbooks available for him to study. Instead, the writing of textbooks on the subject largely began after 1750.

I consider this to be an indication that, when Martin Luther and others were discussing ancient figures such as Plato, Aristotle, or even the Church Fathers, it was understood that these people had existed merely a few generations ago. They talked about Plato much in the same light as we discuss 1800s figures such as Charles Darwin and Queen Victoria.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

Negotiator
Messages
2,630
Likes
7,132
#6
I would imagine some are fake and not of ancient origins. Diamonds can be made in a lab as well as oil. Fake dinosaur bones sit in many museum because they can also be fossilized in a lab in a short time. Wine can be aged artificially. People artificially age wood to give it an old appearance.

If there is money to be made someone has already found a way to cheat the system.
Totally agree as far as money making goes. The issue here is not fakeness, but when they all were discovered. An item could only be a fake if it represents a copy of something which has an original. I'm trying to say that there were never any original statues and busts of ancient origin. Here is Gemistus Pletho his works could be the basis for the Plato's existance. Here is another guy - Marsilio Ficino.

Marsilio_Ficino.jpg
Marsilio Ficino is the first guy to ever push out anything Plato related. He was given some manuscripts in 1462. He translated those into Latin by 1484. The manuscripts were given to him by Cosimo de' Medici.

Cosimo_di_Medici_(Bronzino).jpg

  • Gemistus Pletho re-introduced Plato's ideas to Western Europe during the 1438–1439 Council of Florence
  • Cosimo de' Medici decided to refound Plato's Academy at Florence. (1600-1700 years after the claimed original one)
  • Cosimo de' Medici chose Marsilio Ficino as its head
  • In 1462, Cosimo supplied Ficino with Greek manuscripts of Plato's work
  • Draft translation of the dialogues finished 1468–9; published 1484.
Birth of the Antiquity: 1438 - 1484 - approximately

Plato_1.jpg

Here is when the World, which had no clue about its antiquity, all over sudden starts "discovering" statues, busts, copies of the manuscripts, etc.

And than it gets more interesting. For example, the only reason we know about Socrates is Plato, who mentioned him in his works. It's a chain reaction from here. By eliminating only 3-4 "ancient" authors, we take out approximately over 50% of all the known ancient characters.
 
OP
OP
KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

Negotiator
Messages
2,630
Likes
7,132
#8
Sure looks that way. I wonder why...

Below is the map, allegedly created circa 43 A.D. by Pomponius Mela. I don't know about 43 A.D., but the editio princeps of Mela was published at Milan in 1471. Which is prior to "Plato's" works hitting the streets in 1484. And somehow the map is missing one very insignificant thing in there. It's missing the Roman Empire.

Reconstruction of Pomponius Mela's
world map by Konrad Miller (1898)

Map_Pomponius_Mela.jpg
Do we even have any pre-1484 maps showing the Roman Empire?
 

WildFire2000

Well-known member
Messages
72
Likes
334
#9
Wait, wait, wait. KD, are you saying that ... ROME.. was fabricated in the late 1400's? I've been reading the thread over on WildHeritic over his map stuff, they linked dozens of maps, I'll check the years and get back to you in a bit...
 
OP
OP
KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

Negotiator
Messages
2,630
Likes
7,132
#10
Wait, wait, wait. KD, are you saying that ... ROME.. was fabricated in the late 1400's? I've been reading the thread over on WildHeritic over his map stuff, they linked dozens of maps, I'll check the years and get back to you in a bit...
Nah, not the Rome. The entire Antiquity (Rome, Greece, etc) was fabricated in the 15th century. Just my opinion though. It's much easier with Egypt, that one was popularized in the very early 19th century.

I'm not saying that those areas were not populated by people though.
 

WildFire2000

Well-known member
Messages
72
Likes
334
#11
We have Fra Mauro map that shows a lot of things in immense detail, though it doesn't have any countries around Italy named as anything at all, which is odd, or none that I could find in my quick searches.

The '1300's' Hereford Mappa Mundi Hereford Map was supposedly made in the early 1300's and was kept in the Hereford Cathedral from then until it was .... cleaned and restored and donated to the British Museum in .. 1855. So that's a bust, especially since it reads " Italy with Rome, honoured by a popular Latin hexameter; Roma caput mundi tenet orbis frena rotundi ("Rome, the head, holds the reins of the world")

That's unhelpful. Still looking....

edit: Catalan Atlas This atlas has the cleanest history I've read, and it does mention several cities build by King Alexander of Macedonia, and other things... http://www.cresquesproject.net has the 'translated transcripts' with a link to their sources and what not, but I can't see any specific mention of the Roman Empire, though it does have Christian cities annotated by having crosses atop the cities and the others with a mere dome.

Final edit, with a quick copy-paste from the forum I was using as a resource, from someone with far more experience with historical maps...

Dating of the ancient maps

It's strange that there is a hotspot of medieval maps between 1100 and 1400, but almost nothing before that. Also note that there are no originals left, only copies. Most copies appear to be from 1300-1600. There is a very long time between the maps of antiquity and early middle ages with no map activity at all. The time span of this void is exactly 1000 years if you exclude three dubious 'antique' maps that suddenly appear in the middle ages as copies. [...] and I have the suspicion a couple of early world maps between the year 0 and 1000 are not correctly dated. [...]

I mean, the oldest surviving Ptolemaic world map from the year 150 was "redrawn" by monks at Constantinople under Maximus Planudes in 1300, and then again reconstituted again in the 15h Century. Really? Please try harder, monks! The upheavals between 1500 and 1700 in Africa, Europe and Russia have destroyed most of the original ancient knowledge in my view. We are collecting broken fragments.

So, in closing with my edits, it seems that we have no REAL proof, aside from the copies of the copies. Hmm. If anyone finds anything 'clean', I'd love to see it.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

Negotiator
Messages
2,630
Likes
7,132
#12
I think, that individual cities had to exist. Some could have changed their names later, or leave the old ones, or vanish altogether. Not that important, really.

What appears to matter is the World Setup. In other words how things were working back then. If we can not find Roman Empire anywhere prior to the 15th century, that means what? For whatever reason it had to be created in the 15th century. To hide what? A lot of digging to do here...
Also note that there are no originals left, only copies. Most copies appear to be from 1300-1600.
Exactly my point in everything we deal with. Copies always survive. Originals always get lost.

Our history is based on this:
  • unfortunately all the originals got lost
  • but we have copies...
And coincidentally all those copies started to show up beginning with the 15th century (here I mean sculptures). Sure enough somebody had to dig for some carrots in the 12th, 13th, 14th centuries. Did they miss all those Plato busts?
 
Last edited:

humanoidlord

Well-known member
Messages
648
Likes
496
#13
Sure looks that way. I wonder why...

Below is the map, allegedly created circa 43 A.D. by Pomponius Mela. I don't know about 43 A.D., but the editio princeps of Mela was published at Milan in 1471. Which is prior to "Plato's" works hitting the streets in 1484. And somehow the map is missing one very insignificant thing in there. It's missing the Roman Empire.

Reconstruction of Pomponius Mela's
world map by Konrad Miller (1898)

View attachment 3942
Do we even have any pre-1484 maps showing the Roman Empire?
i am more interested in why the hell europe is making a curve around africa???????????????
 

WildFire2000

Well-known member
Messages
72
Likes
334
#14
You have to turn it. Back then, most of the maps we have copies of have Jerusalem or the Mediterranean as the center, but you need to turn Africa down to the left to make it run north/south. According to most maps pre-1400, only half of Africa was above the ocean. It's an interesting rabbit hole to wander down. I spent 4 days studying maps and others research on old maps and the continents. There's some crazy things to be found.
 
OP
OP
KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

Negotiator
Messages
2,630
Likes
7,132
#15
I did a few articles on Africa, Japan and North America. Maps definitely raise quite a few questions. Quite a facinating topic, those maps are. 1595 Ortelius’s map of the ancient world is quite interesting with regard to what they knew at the time about those ancient countries.

In this topic I’m trying to determine if my suspicions pertaining to the statues have enough merit to establish that all of the so-called ancient statues were non existent prior to 1834.
 

The Wack

Active member
Messages
64
Likes
130
#17
Thanks CN, I noticed on the t&o map above (and Quite a few other older maps) shows Gog and Magog in far very North-eastern extent of the asian landmass. Google maps just shows thousands of round lakes and ponds in the area, lots of different sizes, they nearly looks like craters on the moon or that the place has been bombed beyond comprehension...?

But I am sure they are just left over potholes from the ice-age glaciers melting/s.

/s is interweb for sarcasm btw.

Saw the giza pyramids on that map KD showed, Atlantea in nowdays Libya area too.

Edit, sorry guys n gals, just noticed this thread was about Statues...
 
Last edited:
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
BStankman Buildings and Structures 8

Similar threads

Top