Was Cleopatra a medieval queen?

KorbenDallas

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#1
It appears, today we have this image of Cleopatra, the ancient Egyptian queen, ingrained in our minds. In my previous opinion Cleopatra was a strikingly beautiful woman, who looked what an ancient Egyptian woman was supposed to look like. And of course, Cleopatra related movies contributed to this impression, which at this very moment appears to be highly questionable.

cleopatra_1.jpg cleopatra_3_1.jpg Queen-cleopatra.jpg anthony_cleopatra.jpg
liz_taylor_cleopatra.jpg vivien_leigh_cleopatra.jpg cleopatra_elizabeth_tailor.jpg

While going over some of the ancient Roman stuff, I started seeing paintings dated with 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th centuries where Cleopatra looked nothing like what we are used to today. For me those early images meant that some 500 years ago, there was a totally different understanding of certain events and historical circumstances. Below are a few examples of those paintings and etchings.

15th century art

Antony_and_Cleopatra_3.jpg Tomb_of_Cleopatra_and_Mark_Antony_0.jpg Tomb_of_Cleopatra_and_Mark_Antony_1.jpg cleopatra_ Zainer, Johannes_1473.png Antony_and_Cleopatra_1.jpg Antony_and_Cleopatra_2.jpg Cleopatra and the Asp.jpg


16th century art

Cleopatra with two snakes.jpg the-death-of-cleopatra_16_1.jpg cleopatra_Bartolomeo Neroni.jpg Cleopatra_och_Antonius.jpg

17th century art

Cleopatra and the Asp_5.jpg cleopatra-Guido-Reni.jpg the-death-of-cleopatra-luca-ferrari.jpg Claude_Vignon_-_Cléopâtre_se_donnant_la_mort.jpg The Death of Cleopatra.jpg Cleopatra's Feast.jpg Cleopatra and the Asp_3.jpg

18th century art

francesco-salvator-fontebasso-antonio-al-banchetto-di-cleopatra.jpg francesco-salvator-fontebasso-cleopatre-dans-son-palais-recoit-le-serpent-qui-va-la-tuer.jpg Giovanni_Battista_Tiepolo_The Banquet of Cleopatra.jpg

* * * * *
Here we run into the 19th century, and Cleopatra, all over sudden, starts gaining her contemporary appearance. I'm not going to link the images to the source. You can easily google the 19th century Cleopatra paintings.

brigdman_cleopatra_philae.jpg cabanel_cleopatra_poison.jpg gerome_cleopatra_caesar.jpg Cleopatra_holds_the_dead_Antony.jpg rixens_death_cleopatra.jpg The_Death_of_Cleopatra.jpg

* * * And there you go. In the 21st century we end up with her * * *

Cleopatra: 21st century

21_century_cleopatra.jpg


And here is what we started with: 15th century Cleo
Mark Antony and Cleopatra
Antony_and_Cleopatra_3.jpg


* * * * *
Of course, we could go the beaten path of our dogmatic historians. They would most likely say that in the 15th century people only had texts, and were unable to fully understand the cultural specifics of the ancient Egyptians. Or, we could come up with a few additional explanations aimed at burying the issue within some pseudo-scientific gibberish language.

KD summary: I keep on looking at this image (above) of Mark Antony and Cleopatra, thinking that we got duped one more time. We have to be delusional to think that in 2018 we know better than people knew in 1403. And by the looks of it, those artists had a very different idea of what Cleopatra looked like some 600 years ago.

Cleopatra-and-Mark-Anthony.jpg

Could it be that "antiquity" is not something which took place 2000 years ago, but rather was a time frame fairly contemporary to some of the above paintings and etchings? If we consider the possibility of Pompeii getting buried in 1631, and this bizarre 15th century emergence of the ancient statues... who's there to say (besides the officials) that Cleopatra was not some 14th century queen?

*** Bonus: 15th and 16th century Julius Caesar

Giovanni di Ser Giovanni_caesar.jpg Giovanni di Tommaso Angelo_ the death of Julius Caesar.jpg assasination_julius_caesar.jpg Julius Caesar_x1.png
 

The Wack

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#2
Great post KD, lines up very well with where we just ended up in the Florida Kings thread.

I am seeing something else in one of those great pics,

Screenshot_2018-07-05-20-14-15.png

... a midget/dwarf on the far right, next a regular 6ft man.... and a really tall man... freaky, seeing that 'big' theme a lot lately. Too much, its doing a number on my head quite frankly speaking. Just look at pics trying to spot big'uns parading as regular size folk... lots of photos/drawings/paintings are hiding the 'bigger' truth in plain sight.

Edit to add... look at the Tiny dog on her lap?
Wow, mind blow three times today. Cheers, the Wack.
 
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Hardy

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#4
who's there to say (besides the officials) that Cleopatra was not some 14th century queen?
If there was a link between Julius Caesar and Kleopatra the time frame fits well to an inscription tablet from 1838 of the 'Schwanenburg' in Kleve
here in the region near by the Netherlands which i investigate yesterday at random.
But what mean such a year number in our historical time chaos? Anyway it says on a mixture of German and Dutch language that "The Swan Tower, which collapsed on 7 October 1439, had already stood here 300 years before God was born, and Julius Caesar had had it built."

By the way the Castle was destroyed again in WW2 by bombs and they say finally an allied air plane rammed the Tower, but it was build up again. Unfortunately there is no Picture of the tablet available in the net.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#5
If there was a link between Julius Caesar and Kleopatra the time frame fits well to an inscription tablet from 1838 of the 'Schwanenburg' in Kleve
here in the region near by the Netherlands which i investigate yesterday at random.
But what mean such a year number in our historical time chaos? Anyway it says on a mixture of German and Dutch language that "The Swan Tower, which collapsed on 7 October 1439, had already stood here 300 years before God was born, and Julius Caesar had had it built."

By the way the Castle was destroyed again in WW2 by bombs and they say finally an allied air plane rammed the Tower, but it was build up again. Unfortunately there is no Picture of the tablet available in the net.
Yup Hardy, it would be very interesting to see the tablet. I was able to find the below mentioning in some 1885 book.

Schwanenberg_tower.png
 

Hardy

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#6
Before i take a look in that Book i want to say that German wiki mentions explicit Julius Caesar, that means here is the entire
inscription of the tablet:

caesar.PNG
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#7
Well Hardy, I've got no clue what it says :). Can't even google translate due to it being an image.

At the same time I updated the first post with some Julius Caesar related 15th century images. Things are adding up.
 

The Wack

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#8
Sorry to interupt guys, but I just noticed the baalbek/tartarian swastika design... just below the balcony.
Screenshot_2018-07-06-08-24-46.png
 

The Wack

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#10
Where else did you see that design? Any photos?
Sorry, year or two ago, diff computer but it was some early photos of massive stone cornice, fallen off the top of a wall at baalbek, sure it was leaning against the wall like it had fallen there, too big for 'us to easily move...

And just the other day, Phil Druzhini(sic) youtube, showed some pics of the 'round spherical rocks' that allegedly bore out massive cauldrons in the bedrock as ice melted, he was commenting on how the photographer was always using kids in the shots for scale... but I saw smashed tile or piece of pottery in the background with the swatch on it EXACTLY the same as what I'd seen previously.... and never ANYWHERE else until your pic of the giant cleo and clownlike company.

Screenshot_2018-07-07-08-28-30.png
And absolutely can Not find thhe other...?
It was a russian geologist, black and white photo, thought id was on Druzhinins channel but couldn't find it...
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#11
Very similar. Would be interesting to figure out the history of the building with Cleopatra and compare it to the Baalbek one.

Unfortunately I do not think we will ever find the true meaning of these designs within the available sources. As far as we are told those are just decorations.
 

humanoidlord

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#12
weird how many historical figures were pictured differently in the past, there is definitely a pattern here
 

Verity

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#13
KD: Unfortunately I do not think we will ever find the true meaning of these designs within the available sources. As far as we are told those are just decorations.
Whenever I see the swastika these days my mind shoots directly to the image below.
I'm not sure if you're saying you wonder where that specific symbol/image comes from, but in case anyone else interpreted it thus, this is what I can happily believe- that it was the image of OUR star system;

SwastikaDipper.jpg
 
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