What was "Truth" during the golden age of historical forgery?

tupperaware

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#1
Being a little familiar with Fomenko's books and some topics/posts from this forum and elsewhere, that age of forgery might be the years 1000 to 1800. During this time perhaps all books of the bible, all of Roman and Greek history, all of Asian history etc. were repeatedly forged to one degree or another. Shouldn't we consider the state of mind of the forgers and how they were influenced with the going concept of "Truth" during those times? Truth concepts apparently greatly changed early on in that period.

Changing concepts of truth in the Middle Ages
Truth - Wikipedia
"Richard Firth Green examined the concept of truth in the later Middle Ages in his A Crisis of Truth, and concludes that roughly during the reign of Richard II of England the very meaning of the concept changes. The idea of the oath, which was so much part and parcel of for instance Romance literature, changes from a subjective concept to a more objective one (in Derek Pearsall's summary). Whereas truth (the "trouthe" of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight) was first "an ethical truth in which truth is understood to reside in persons", in Ricardian England it "transforms... into a political truth in which truth is understood to reside in documents".

This is a major redefinition right at the time when I believe Fomenko said the master forgers were coming into full form - 1400 or so building up slowly to a crescendo from around 1000.

One interesting question would be, could expanding forgery itself have wedged a massive crack through the concept of truth residing in individuals, resulting in truth quickly moving to residing in documents as well as of course forged documents? The frightening prospect is that the rug was pulled under self centered truth resulting in a reformation leading to "truth" as first and foremost "something" contained in a document and secondarily as something truthful - truth as afterthought. For budding forgers truth as a document vessel (truth = document, reflexive) could be filled with imaginary landscapes truthful unto itself and within that document or across volumes of documents. In other words as long as it reads well and meshes into an ever growing library of false history - it "might as well" be true. This is the dawning of a binary star, parallel truth universe for forgers in the know. A new world of historical fantasy ignites, focused by reason, religion and pragmatism of the day with the library building on itself with runaway positive feedback resulting in the transformation of historical truth into a man made phantasmagoria of fakery hidden from everybody except the fakers. If you have seen the movie "Perfume: The Story of a Murderer" that might have been what it was like to be a master document forger and the lengths they would go for their craft.

Maybe the thick book on how to fake history wasn't burned and resides in an obscure monastery somewhere. Masons had their secret handshakes. I wonder if the forgers did and still do? Those must have been exciting times back in Richard's day especially when the Byzantine scribes were in town.

Substitute "truth" for "music" in the song below and you might catch the sentiment of many people during Richard II's reign as the old notion of the truth you feel in your gut died away.

A long long time ago​
I can still remember how​
That music used to make me smile​
And I knew if I had my chance​
That I could make those people dance​
And maybe they'd be happy for a while​
But February made me shiver​
With every paper I'd deliver​
Bad news on the doorstep​
I couldn't take one more step​
I can't remember if I cried​
When I read about his widowed bride​
Something touched me deep inside​
The day the music died​
So​
Bye, bye Miss American Pie​
Drove my Chevy to the levee but the levee was dry​
And them good ole boys were drinking whiskey and rye​
Singin' this'll be the day that I die​
This'll be the day that I die​
Did you write the book of love​
And do you have faith in God above​
If the Bible tells you so?​
Do you believe in rock and roll?​
Can music…​
 
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dreamtime

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#2
...was first "an ethical truth in which truth is understood to reside in persons", in Ricardian England it "transforms...into a political truth in which truth is understood to reside in documents
That's an interesting aspect.

In general I think the truth was something that was dependent on the community and society you live in. People knew there was a single objective truth, but realized that only in a distant past everyone was united, and the current age doesn't allow for this unification but still made everyone express the desire for truth in the way they lived it. People were living according to their beliefs, but acknowledged that there are countless other beliefs that were as honest in truth seekign as theirs, but influenced by their experiences and culture. So I think the appreciation of multiple approaches to reality were widespread. This in contrast to today, where there are only two concepts of truth: the scientific and the religious, and the latter is increasingly becoming insignificant.

Then the church came along and was the first to focus on documents. Decades went by and because the church played the long game and were willing to wait for centuries they outplayed those that relied on other forms of keepin the truth. Factor in the destruction of heretic writings, and one or two cataclysms, and then it explains why the church had such an advantage over others.

The multi-polar global world for some reason took a big hit and died out. I guess without the help of the church. Afterwards then there was the church and those who fought against them. Unfortunately an organized group that focuses on forgeries and manipulation which is bigger than it's parts will probably have a big advantage over lose local groups that don't care about hierarchies. I think this fight to keep the church institution from gaining power went on for at least 200 years between 1500 and 1700, maybe even started in the 1400s. The church had to convinve kingdoms and rulers to play along and I guess this was another advantage, because the corrupt ideologies were appealing to those rulers who helped the church with military power. When you look into who fought the heretics, it was always state military, but the church directed the efforts. This was the beginning of kingdoms being ruled from behind the curtains. Maybe the church simply had the right ideology for ruling over people so lots of powerful people helped out to destroy the last strongholds of resistance. Otherwise I can't explain their quick rise.

So those institutions tried to manage how people see the world, and over time many religious people just accepted that they can only keep their truth when they are under the banner of this corrupt institution. Over the centuries, most of the true contents of this religion faded away and left us with this empty modern construct. If this was the role of the Vatican church, then they are no longer important today, as the dominant ideology will become scientism and the idea of the emptiness and meaningless of everything. Ideas of what was regarded as truth - humanities place in the world, the world ages, genesis and creation are still found in the work of the forgers, but it's probably only a cheap copy of what once a living truth.

Here's a map which I think portrays the true situation somewhere in the 17th Century.

37437.jpg


The map includes the following annotations:
  • Mushall the See of the Nesterian Patriarch
  • Tartaria more Christans than in the Latin Church and under ye Par: of musal
  • Persia In this Contri are Armenians and many sorts of Christians
  • Tarsus Some Christians Some nevit that the wise men came to Christ duelt here
  • The Abissine Christians under Prester John
Europe
The map shows the 4 groups of Christians in Europe:
  • Protestants
  • Papists
  • Muscovites
  • Greeks (the last 2 agree with the Protestants)
Africa
The map shows various interesting notes in Africa, including:
  • Near Tunisia: Christianitie In a manner lost for want of teachers here have bene some 100 of ?? and now 2 only left
  • In Egypt: Patriarch of Alexandria The christians in Aegypt Called Cophti under the Turke
  • Ethiopia: The Abissine Christians Under Prester John
  • Angola: Some Christ:
I think it's a remarkable map. It shows where Christians live, under wich rule they are, and to which subgroup they belong. And surprisingly there is a small group called "Papists".. Not catholics - but papists. And there are only 3 countries where they dominate: Italy, France, Spain. Maybe it also proves that the world was "christianized" before colonialism. Even Christians in Japan, which we are believed was so anti-Christian (Anti-pope in reality).

4.png

Here we have proof that even in the 17th Century there was a clear division between those who followed the Popes, and everyone else. And it shows that they were confined to only three countries.

And here's another sign of the conflict before the church forged our history: "In Europe are 4 sorts of Christians... The two last agree with the Protestants and are not subject to the Pope". No one liked those guys and they didn't represent Christianity in the slightest.

1.png
2.png
3.png

All of this shows that the concept of truth included for diverse groups living in harmony despite the different ways of looking at the world. Except the "Papists", they didn't want to accept this.
 
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tupperaware

tupperaware

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#3
I will see if I can dig up some more detailed information on the history of truth. There is plenty of history on document forgery but not the underlying "truth" behind that. Here is something that could be a core driver of an "oscillation" of truth to falsity and back again - at intervals in history. This is an obscure book on logic extended a bit to account for that oscillation but dealing with flip floppy paradoxes like Zeno's and Cretin's Paradox.

Maybe the reality of duality is unity - for truth and falsehood with unity being something else entirely - like paradox? I realize that oscillating back and forth is trivial in logic constructs but to what extent does it drive the universe like plasma and scale down well to drive cultural concepts of truth? If truth can slip from one definition to another and very smart people take notice of that a few will start using truth like ink in a bottle. Falsehood likewise would be periodically redefined in major ways at intervals and definition drift almost unnoticed between those large intervals.

Twas paradox that drove the forgers mad.

I checked this out of the college library years ago to spend around an hour browsing then found it again years later.

Diamond Paradox review: A Paradox Logic

from the book
paradox.jpg
 
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freezetime26

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#4
I will see if I can dig up some more detailed information on the history of truth. There is plenty of history on document forgery but not the underlying "truth" behind that. Here is something that could be a core driver of an "oscillation" of truth to falsity and back again - at intervals in history. This is an obscure book on logic extended a bit to account for that oscillation but dealing with flip floppy paradoxes like Zeno's and Cretin's Paradox.

Maybe the reality of duality is unity - for truth and falsehood with unity being something else entirely - like paradox? I realize that oscillating back and forth is trivial in logic constructs but to what extent does it drive the universe like plasma and scale down well to drive cultural concepts of truth? If truth can slip from one definition to another and very smart people take notice of that a few will start using truth like ink in a bottle. Falsehood likewise would be periodically redefined in major ways at intervals and definition drift almost unnoticed between those large intervals.

Twas paradox that drove the forgers mad.

I checked this out of the college library years ago to spend around an hour browsing then found it again years later.

Diamond Paradox review: A Paradox Logic

from the book:

That seems like a very complex book, but im gonna keep it.
 
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tupperaware

tupperaware

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#5
Here is a very detailed article on logic paradoxes in the middle ages. Insolubles (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Worth skimming to review how the best logicians of the day dealt with paradox like the "Liar" Liar paradox - Wikipedia

Some early philosopher's had a hard time digesting the Liar paradox and and actually died of insomnia supposedly. But Fomenko's theory is that medieval scribes penned everything prior to 1000AD. These forgers might have dumbed down the paradoxes and inserted them into their ancient history. Medieval logicians and Masters of the Arts scoffed at these earlier wannabe logicians. They found the paradoxes easier to understand by rounding their corners a bit.

Notice that for some mysterious reason the medieval logicians did not reference/study many of the should have been known ancient philosophers struggling with these paradoxes? Perhaps because those philosophers had not been Medieval scribe forged yet?
"Nonetheless, it does not appear that medieval interest in insolubles was derived directly from these or any other known ancient sources that discuss the Liar. Many of the relevant works were lost (e.g., the works of Chrysippus), while others were never translated into Latin and so were effectively unavailable to the Latin Middle Ages, though things may be different for the Arabic and Byzantine traditions, which are only starting to be studied (see, e.g., Alwishah & Sanson 2009; Gerogiorgakis 2009). Indeed, it is not at all clear just what it was that prompted medieval interest. One might have supposed that, even if particular theories about the Liar were not transmitted to the Latin West from antiquity, at least formulations of Liar-type paradoxes must have been known and available to stimulate the medieval discussions. In fact, however, there are strikingly few possibilities. "

Roger Swyneshed is both a master logician and a Benedictine monk! Benedictines are suspects for massive history forgery according to Fomenko. Roger of Swyneshed | Encyclopedia.com

The Bible and Interpretation
"Taken as a whole, medieval monks and clerics were probably the most prolific forgers of all time. For centuries they controlled access to official documents, placing them in a perfect position to alter or forge those documents, should they so desire. And judging by the volume of their output, they evidently did so desire. What’s more, their superiors could be counted on to overlook, or even approve, any textual inventions that benefited the Church."

scribe.jpg
 

Jacob

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#6
Have they not traveled through the earth and observed how was the end of those before them? They were greater than them in power, and they plowed the earth and built it up more than they have built it up, and their messengers came to them with clear evidences. And Allah would not ever have wronged them, but they were wronging themselves.

-Sura Ar-Rum/Rome, Ayah 9
 
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tupperaware

tupperaware

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#7
Have they not traveled through the earth and observed how was the end of those before them? They were greater than them in power, and they plowed the earth and built it up more than they have built it up, and their messengers came to them with clear evidences. And Allah would not ever have wronged them, but they were wronging themselves.

-Sura Ar-Rum/Rome, Ayah 9
Here is plowed Earth a few million years ago according to convention geology when the volcanic tufa turned to wet clay for easy plowing. Others think this might be only a few thousand years ago.


A thousand Great Pyramids worth of plowing.
 
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#8
In the modern sense, since Descartes and similar philosophers, truth is a quality of propositions (declarative sentences). A proposition is true when the state of affairs expressed by the proposition is the case. The proposition "the king is bald" is true when the intended king is bald. It seems to me that this correspondence-concept of truth is founding at the same time modern historical science AND the falsification of history. The historical truth is contained in propositions corresponding to a supposed state of affairs in the past. But as we cannot return to the past to verify the propositions, it is very simple, with some assertive storytelling, to do AS IF propositions do correspond with a state of affairs in the past, even when they are totally invented. If necessary, the so called historical sources can also be created. This also means (in my opinion) that the golden age of historical forgery is modern time, from the protorenaissance and renaissance on (and since then, the falsification of history has never stopped).
 
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tupperaware

tupperaware

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#9
In the modern sense, since Descartes and similar philosophers, truth is a quality of propositions (declarative sentences). A proposition is true when the state of affairs expressed by the proposition is the case. The proposition "the king is bald" is true when the intended king is bald. It seems to me that this correspondence-concept of truth is founding at the same time modern historical science AND the falsification of history. The historical truth is contained in propositions corresponding to a supposed state of affairs in the past. But as we cannot return to the past to verify the propositions, it is very simple, with some assertive storytelling, to do AS IF propositions do correspond with a state of affairs in the past, even when they are totally invented. If necessary, the so called historical sources can also be created. This also means (in my opinion) that the golden age of historical forgery is modern time, from the protorenaissance and renaissance on (and since then, the falsification of history has never stopped).
My guess is the biggest of the logic paradoxes whispered in ancient Greece but certainly on the lips of all logicians 600 years ago, the Liar paradox - "this sentence is false" and all the other variations was enough to transform chroniclers into myth makers. After all it violates but does not violate "Truth is: A proposition is true when the state of affairs expressed by the proposition is the case." Which would have been commonsense knowledge 500 years ago in the clergy. Apparently the Liar paradox killed a Greek Philosopher suggesting it was a truth bomb opening up many passageways for "story telling" as fact. It is true, its not true, it is true, its not true...... Now one day you are a liar and you whip yourself for penance and the next you are a truth teller and doing Gods work. If you recite the above truth paradox fast enough then truth and falsehood disappear and the Benedictine monk rewriting history writes in a state of truth grace. Gradual and permanent altered consciousness just by chanting a logic statement.

Since there currently are barriers to massive historical forgery now but much less 800 years ago (protorenaissance), I think percentage wise history then was much more truth fluid than now. Falsification of history is in decline since 800 years ago. This forum would have been burned at the stake in 1300 but now will probably get its own TV show in a few years and thats no exaggeration.
 

whitewave

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#10
Here is plowed Earth a few million years ago according to convention geology when the volcanic tufa turned to wet clay for easy plowing. Others think this might be only a few thousand years ago.


A thousand Great Pyramids worth of plowing.
Since the plow was invented around 5,000 years ago, that should help to narrow down the timeline. Also, as I wrote on the China thread, apparently the rest of the world was scattering seeds over unplowed ground until A.D. 1600.
I also have a bridge I'd like to sell to you. :)
 
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tupperaware

tupperaware

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#11
Since the plow was invented around 5,000 years ago, that should help to narrow down the timeline. Also, as I wrote on the China thread, apparently the rest of the world was scattering seeds over unplowed ground until A.D. 1600.
I also have a bridge I'd like to sell to you. :)
I used "plow" as humor for ancient aliens megamachinery driven by 10,000 year old rust bucket robots.
 

sonoman

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#12
hey tupperware, great thread. a started to type a brief reply about that division of truth they wrote about and it went there again so rather that get all messy here with it I posted it on my big mess of a thread. lol

but check it out, what you are on about here is a big deal!

p.s. true vs false? limited binary, this is The Way I go about my quest: true, untrue, or false?
 
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