Napoléon, aka Nicholas, Brutus and Ali Bonaparte: what do we know?

Llend · Jul 3, 2021

Notice the fasces symbol just visible on the flag in the upper right image of your post...

The axe is of dual purpose, destruction and creation. The depiction of a single bladed or sided axe reinforces the thought that one force can be used for both purposes.

Fasces

My personal hunch is the basic interpretation of ‘a bundle of sticks is not easily broken’ is a more modern idea (mostly for misdirection) and doesn’t seem as complete a view. I think this is cargo culted from its original concepts which I hope to provide some insight for:

The bundles of sticks allows the axe to float should it fall into the water.

To loose an axe would be a great peril since it’s purpose is so integral to the building of a civilization. In this context we can interpret that a good leader is careful to manage his own resources. Loosing an axe to the ocean could be thought of a careless loss of troops for example. Thus the fasces in-part could be a symbol of due diligence in resource management (especially if the war resources are loaned or borrowed). Likewise in addition to helping the axe float, it also provides extra protection from shattering to various war hazards.

The fasces is also a kind of sheath for the axe.

When you besiege a city many days and make war against it, destroying the surrounding trees could be excessive, especially if you can eat from them or rest beneath them. By extension of this idea, the same principle could be applied to the innocents that get mixed up in warfare.

Likewise, the bundles that encircle the axe and are literally extra resources (to use up before the axe even become a necessary force); but metaphorically the ratio (10:1) serves as a reminder that the wood and the axe are bound together, there are ten wooden rods and only one axe—do not create the world were only axes exist (ie a woe against needless slaughter). You couldn’t inspire unity with such approaches.

How ironic is it that fascism essentially stands in stark contrast to the ideas?

To shift gears entirely, I think another compelling idea more inline with this post is the concept of bundling variations of the same stories around a common narrative source. I think it’s entirely possible the fasces symbol was cargo culted to signify something entirely different in the dawn of artwork, portraits, and other plagiarized materials of the post-cataclysmic world...

The axe represents is the original historical narrative, it’s used to chop down the raw materials (ie other languages you wish to implant your story into) and then they are spun and smoothed perfectly round and flawless (wooden rods).

You then break the axe (the handle) symbolic of destroying the source of the narrative. Act of creation and destruction.

Then all the wooden rods (implanted narratives) are then carefully bound around the axe, covering the broken handle and reinforcing the idea without exposing the reality.

Still visible is the axe’s blade, the sharp literally element in each story that ultimately ‘shapes’ the story. But the refinement of the bound parts has made each distinct in its own sense of merit, all the more impressive that they tied in with the other ‘histories’ seeming to occupy the same time but not in the same space.

In this way you can program a similar people groups in different countries/languages; how fascist is that.

Note: the axe is the 22 symbol in masonry. 22 is the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet. It was tradition for leaders of the Sanhedrin (Hebrew Elder Council) to be fluent in every language present in vicinity of their area of influence (or was it all known languages at their time?). Recall how I mention the previous ideas about preserving resources. Just some other peculiar correspondences to consider.

KorbenDallas · Jul 3, 2021

Ran into this comparison between Napoleon I and Napoleon III. Sounds pretty interesting.

Jinxy · Jul 8, 2021

During Napoleon there was this
guy named Marchal Jean de Dieu Soult.
His nickname was "king Nicolas" (?) Especially in Spain and/ or Portugal.
More info
He was sometimes etched as a caricature with an ugly big head.
Everything about Napoleon is strange.

Poem of Victor Hugo:

This century was two years old! Rome replaced Sparta,
Napoleon broke through under Bonaparte,
And from the First Consul, already in many places,
The Emperor's forehead broke the narrow mask.
So in Besançon, old Spanish city,
Thrown like a seed at the mercy of the flying sky,
Born of Breton and Lorraine blood at the same time
A child without color, without look and without voice;
As stupid as he was, like a chimera,
Abandoned by everyone but his mother,
And that her neck bowed like a brittle reed
Having his beer and his crib made at the same time.
This child that life has erased from his book,
And who didn't even have a tomorrow to live,
That's me.

Timeshifter · Jul 16, 2021

Good stuff Kd.

English academic and theologian Richard Whately wiki wrote a paper/ book in 1852 called 'Historical doubts to Napoleon Bonaparte' which you can read free here

In this paper, he destroyes the narrative of Napoleon, claiming for someone to have acheived the feats attributed to him, there must have been many 'Napoleons'

"With respect to the character of Buonaparte, the dissonance is, if possible, still greater. According to some, he was a wise, humane, magnanimous hero; others paint him as a monster of cruelty, meanness, and perfidy: some, even of those who are most inveterate against him, speak very highly of his political and military ability: others place him on the very verge of insanity. But allowing that all this may be the colouring" "of party-prejudice, (which surely is allowing a great deal,) there is one point to which such a solution will hardly apply: if there be anything that can be clearly ascertained in history, one would think it must be the personal courage of a military man; yet here we are as much at a loss as ever; at the very same times, and on the same occasions, he is described by different writers as a man of undaunted intrepidity, and as an absolute poltroon. What, then, are we to believe? If we are disposed to credit all that is told us, we must believe in the existence not only of one, but of two or three Buonapartes; if we admit nothing but what is well authenticated, we shall be compelled to doubt of the existence of any.[9] It appears, then, that those on whose testimony the existence and actions of Buonaparte are generally believed, fail in ALL the most essential points on which the credibility of witnesses depends: first, we have no assurance that they have access to correct information; secondly, they have an apparent interest in propagating falsehood; and, thirdly, they palpably contradict each other in the most important points."

of course, other mainstream historians ridule Whately, but his text makes more sense than the official narrative.

As with most of these 'historical charactors' the 'proofs' you find in academia, are mostly written in the 20th century.

My guess, the Napoleon stories were old stories re - hashed, and used as a cover for someone, or somethign else.

Jinxy · Jul 25, 2021

Napoleon had a few of "brothers" that he made "kings" like Louis Napoleon, Lucien Napoleon and Joseph Napoleon.

Some of them ended up in the USA like Joseph Napoleon

But is it also known that his other brother Jerome Napoleon made whole bunch of Jerome-sons all over?
One of them was the grandson of the founder of the Baltimore railroad and he became the father of the founder of the FBI.
Small world...

Banta · Nov 16, 2021

I can’t believe I didn’t do this before, but here’s what wiki has to say about the origins of the name “Nicholas”:

The name is derived from the Greek name Νικόλαος (Nikolaos), understood to mean 'victory of the people', being a compound of νίκη nikē 'victory' and λαός laos 'people'. An ancient paretymology of the latter is that originates from λᾶς las (contracted form of λᾶας laas) meaning 'stone' or 'rock', as in Greek mythology, Deucalion and Pyrrha recreated the people after they had vanished in a catastrophic deluge, by throwing stones behind their shoulders while they kept marching on.

There’s a lot of ways to look at that in context, most of them seem fairly strange. So, I started to think about famous Nicholases (Nicholai?), but wiki had me covered with the very next sentence:

The name became popular through Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Myra in Lycia, the inspiration for Santa Claus, but it predates said Bishop by several centuries: the Athenian historian Thucydides for example, mentions that in the second year of the Peloponnesian War (431–404 BC) between Sparta and Athens, the Spartans sent a delegation to the Persian king to ask for his help to fight the Athenians; a certain Nikolaos was one of the delegates.

What about that jolly old Saint?

Very little is known about the historical Saint Nicholas. The earliest accounts of his life were written centuries after his death and contain many legendary elaborations. He is said to have been born in the Greek seaport of Patara, Lycia in Asia Minor to wealthy Christian parents. In one of the earliest attested and most famous incidents from his life, he is said to have rescued three girls from being forced into prostitution by dropping a sack of gold coins through the window of their house each night for three nights so their father could pay a dowry for each of them. Other early stories tell of him calming a storm at sea, saving three innocent soldiers from wrongful execution, and chopping down a tree possessed by a demon. In his youth, he is said to have made a pilgrimage to Egypt and Palestine. Shortly after his return, he became Bishop of Myra. He was later cast into prison during the persecution of Diocletian, but was released after the accession of Constantine. An early list makes him an attendee at the First Council of Nicaea in 325, but he is never mentioned in any writings by people who were actually at the council. Late, unsubstantiated legends claim that he was temporarily defrocked and imprisoned during the council for slapping the heretic Arius. Another famous late legend tells how he resurrected three children, who had been murdered and pickled in brine by a butcher planning to sell them as pork during a famine.

Illustration of Saint Nicholas resurrecting the three butchered "children" (BANTA: If you say so...) from the Grandes Heures d'Anne de Bretagne (created between 1503 and 1508)

One story tells how during a terrible famine, a malicious butcher lured three little children into his house, where he killed them, placing their remains in a barrel to cure, planning to sell them off as ham. Nicholas, visiting the region to care for the hungry, saw through the butcher's lies and resurrected the pickled children by making the Sign of the Cross. Adam C. English notes that the story of the resurrection of the pickled children is a late medieval addition to the legendary biography of Saint Nicholas and that it is not found in any of his earliest Lives. Jona Lendering states that the story is "without any historical value."

Though this story seems bizarre and horrifying to modern audiences, it was tremendously popular throughout the late Middle Ages and the Early Modern Period and widely beloved by ordinary folk. It is depicted in stained glass windows, wood panel paintings, tapestries, and frescoes. Eventually, the scene became so widely reproduced that, rather than showing the whole scene, artists began to merely depict Saint Nicholas with three naked children and a wooden barrel at his feet. According to English, eventually, people who had forgotten or never learned the story began misinterpreting representations of it. The fact that Saint Nicholas was shown with children led people to conclude he was the patron saint of children; meanwhile, the fact that he was shown with a barrel led people to conclude that he was the patron saint of brewers.

Remember what Nicholas allegedly means and the meaning of the root Greek words? All in all, our proto-Santa seems, dare I say, pretty Christ-like with his powers. And of course, if you look through the wiki on the name Nicholas, we have lots of namesakes (or duplicates?). Such as Nicholas of Sion, an alleged 6th century Saint from literally the same place three centuries later, who adopted the OG Nick's name as a tribute. He also had wizard powers which apparently get confused with Bishop Nicholas:

As Nicholas was growing up, he regularly went to study and learn with his teacher. One day as he was on his way he came upon a woman with a withered hand. Stopping, he approached her, laid his hand on her, prayed to God, and made the sign of the cross. The hand miraculously became whole.

This was the earliest miracle that has been attributed to Saint Nicholas.

NOTE
This story is frequently portrayed on Russian hagiographic icons as part of the life of Saint Nicholas. It is adapted from the Life of Nicholas of Sion, 6th century abbot of the Monastery of Holy Sion near Myra in Lycia and bishop of Pinara in western Lycia. This manuscript was taken to Russia in the 10th century and mistakenly identified with Nicholas of Myra. Many of the conventional characteristics common to accounts of saints’ lives that have become a part of the Saint Nicholas tradition can be traced to this source. This is particularly true of the events surrounding his birth and childhood.

source

There's probably a lot more to be said about the sign of the cross, but that'll have to be another exploration, as I still need to tie this back to the OP, as loosely as I can.

Looking at St. Nick's birthplace, Patara, gave me a couple details that stood out too, in light of a couple other threads I've been following up on:

The city, with the rest of Lycia, surrendered to Alexander the Great in 333 BC. During the Wars of the Diadochi, it was occupied in turn by Antigonus and Demetrius, before finally falling to the Ptolemies. Strabo informs us that Ptolemy Philadelphus of Egypt, who enlarged the city, gave it the name of Arsinoe (Arsinoë) after Arsinoe II of Egypt, his wife and sister, but it continued to be called by its ancient name, Patara. Antiochus III captured Patara in 196 BC. The Rhodians occupied the city, and as a Roman ally, the city with the rest of Lycia was granted its freedom in 167 BC. In 88 BC, the city suffered siege by Mithridates IV, king of Pontus...

This point is more off-track than the rest of this, but the sync was too strange for me not to mention. First of all, wiki is wrong (shocker) if what they're describing happened in 88 BC. It's not Mithridates IV (died c. 150 BC), it's Mithridates VI, who was responsible for the Mithridatic Wars, which is mentioned in this thread about the Long Walls of Athens, which were allegedly destroyed in the conflicts but KD points out are depicted 1,800 years later. The name Mithridates to anyone familiar with mythology and the mystery cults should sound a couple alarm bells, especially when you realize that Mithridates VI's full name is "Mithridates Eupator Dionysus." Also, consider that Mithraism doesn't really get started until the 1st century AD (in the conventional timeline, oddly syncing up with the establishment of Christianity). Again, not sure how this fits into all of this, but just thought I'd throw that out there. Anyway, back to Patara:

In 88 BC, the city suffered siege by Mithridates IV, king of Pontus and was captured by Brutus and Cassius, during their campaign against Mark Antony and Augustus.

So, there's a good segue into exploring the name "Brutus" but before we do, I should probably mention that although, as wiki repeats incessantly, we don't really have good information on what's historical fact and what's mythologized, we do have a date for when Saint Nicholas was born: March 15, 270 AD.

Perhaps KD was more than just "seeing things" when he referenced the assassination of Julius Caesar, which is alleged to have occurred 313 years prior to the birth of the man who would be Santa. I'm sure most of us are familiar with the role that Marcus Junius Brutus played in the murder, and it's hard to ignore the role that Shakespeare played in popularizing the tale in The Tragedie of Julius Cæsar. But there's more than one Brutus, good ol' William (himself basically an unverifiable commodity too) even mentions in his play:

"O, you and I have heard our fathers say,
There was a Brutus once that would have brookt
Th'eternal devil to keep his state in Rome
As easily as a king."

This would be referring to Lucius Junius Brutus, Marcus's 6th century BC ancestor:

Lucius Junius Brutus (fl. 6th century BC) is the semi-legendary founder of the Roman Republic, and traditionally one of its first consuls in 509 BC. He was reputedly responsible for the expulsion of his uncle the Roman king Tarquinius Superbus after the suicide of Lucretia, which led to the overthrow of the Roman monarchy. He was involved in the abdication of fellow consul Tarquinius Collatinus, and executed two of his sons for plotting the restoration of the Tarquins.

He was claimed as an ancestor of the Roman gens Junia, including Decimus Junius Brutus, and Marcus Junius Brutus, the most famous of Julius Caesar's assassins. Traditions about his life may have been fictional, and some scholars argue that it was the Etruscan king Porsenna who overthrew Tarquinius.

What a family! It should be noted that Lucius and Lucifer share a common root, for whatever you want to make of that (also, as Jinxy mentioned in the post above, there's Lucien Bonaparte just to muddy this up even further). The entire tale of the overthrow of the Roman monarchy is interesting, and shares some themes with yet another historical Brutus:

Brutus, or Brute of Troy, is a legendary descendant of the Trojan hero Aeneas, known in medieval British history as the eponymous founder and first king of Britain...

Geoffrey of Monmouth's account tells much the same story, but in greater detail. In this version, Brutus is explicitly the grandson, rather than son, of Ascanius; his father is Ascanius' son Silvius. The magician who predicts great things for the unborn Brutus also foretells he will kill both his parents. He does so, in the same manner described in the Historia Brittonum, and is banished. Travelling to Greece, he discovers a group of Trojans enslaved there. He becomes their leader, and after a series of battles they defeat the Greek king Pandrasus by attacking his camp at night after capturing the guards. He takes him hostage and forces him to let his people go. He is given Pandrasus's daughter Ignoge or Innogen in marriage, and ships and provisions for the voyage, and sets sail.

The Trojans land on a deserted island and discover an abandoned temple to Diana. After performing the appropriate ritual, Brutus falls asleep in front of the goddess's statue and is given a vision of the land where he is destined to settle, an island in the western ocean inhabited only by a few giants.

After some adventures in north Africa and a close encounter with the Sirens, Brutus discovers another group of exiled Trojans living on the shores of the Tyrrhenian Sea, led by the prodigious warrior Corineus. In Gaul, Corineus provokes a war with Goffarius Pictus, king of Aquitaine, after hunting in the king's forests without permission. Brutus's nephew Turonus dies in the fighting, and the city of Tours is founded where he is buried. The Trojans win most of their battles but are conscious that the Gauls have the advantage of numbers, so go back to their ships and sail for Britain, then called Albion. They land on "Totonesium litus"—"the sea-coast of Totnes". They meet the giant descendants of Albion and defeat them.

Brutus renames the island after himself and becomes its first king. Corineus becomes ruler of Cornwall, which is named after him. They are harassed by the giants during a festival, but kill all of them but their leader, the largest giant Goemagot, who is saved for a wrestling match against Corineus. Corineus throws him over a cliff to his death. Brutus then founds a city on the banks of the River Thames, which he calls Troia Nova, or New Troy. The name is in time corrupted to Trinovantum, and the city is later called London.

Brutus of Troy - Wikipedia

Couple potentially unrelated points here: largest giant Goemagot potentially named after Gog and Magog from the Bible, which is another rabbit hole altogether. Additionally, the original name of London being New Troy is super interesting given that's what the area that is now called Washington D.C. was originally called.

Like all the Nicholases, there are many Brutuses as well, many with thematically equivalent stories.

So, after all of that, I feel like I should post some sort of summary to bring it back to Napoleon, but it's fairly difficult. What seems the clearest to me is that it is likely that many alleged proper names (like we see with cities too) are more than likely "titles" and we are lacking the historical context to properly assess exactly why Napoleon would be referred to as both Nicholas and Brutus (and Ali for that matter). All of this is made even more difficult by considering that many of these historical figures have been duplicated, actual people have been mythologized (and vice versa, most likely). I feel like I'm still perhaps decades away from getting a handle on this, but it seems like there's several throughlines to be found if we stop trying to divide things squarely into "fact" and "fiction."

Edit: Wasn’t sure if I could add this easily, but on second thought it’s probably worth a mention. Saint Nicholas has some pretty awesome remains apparently (first sentence sort of re-enforces how popular this dude was, before he became a composite cartoon character of sorts):

By the 10th century, Nicholas's popularity was second only to that of the Virgin Mary and people wanted to know more. Chroniclers plugged the gaps by stealing biographical details from another Nicholas, a bishop of a town near Myra who died soon after his namesake. And from that deception unspooled 1,000 years of distortion that culminated in our modern Santa.

Glowing beside the altar is a candlelit Orthodox chapel for Greek, Balkan and Russian pilgrims. As possibly the only Roman Catholic basilica in the world to have such a chapel, it is an important ecumenical centre. Seeping into the Russians' prayers are Catholic hymns from the mass upstairs. A father whispers to his sons about the miracle of St Nicholas's manna, a pure water collected from the tomb every May. Whether it emanates from the bones or the marble, no one knows for sure, but its perfume is said to ward off evil.

The pilgrims ascend into balmy December sunshine and cluster into the shop beside the basilica. Key-rings, plaques, medallions, books and ashtrays are priced in lire, dollars and roubles. A thimble of manna, diluted with holy water, goes for £1.50. A deluxe two-litre bottle will set you back £160.

Bones of contention | The Guardian | guardian.co.uk

If you aren’t precisely sure on what “manna” is/was, check out the wiki (and then you can be potentially even less sure!)

Another related thread on Saint Nicholas’s “death town”: Turkey: 13th Century Chapel, Mud Flood and Renamed Cities

Benjamin Rush · Aug 24, 2023

Jinxy said:
During Napoleon there was this
guy named Marchal Jean de Dieu Soult.
His nickname was "king Nicolas" (?) Especially in Spain and/ or Portugal.
More info
He was sometimes etched as a caricature with an ugly big head.
Everything about Napoleon is strange.

Poem of Victor Hugo:

This century was two years old! Rome replaced Sparta,
Napoleon broke through under Bonaparte,
And from the First Consul, already in many places,
The Emperor's forehead broke the narrow mask.
So in Besançon, old Spanish city,
Thrown like a seed at the mercy of the flying sky,
Born of Breton and Lorraine blood at the same time
A child without color, without look and without voice;
As stupid as he was, like a chimera,
Abandoned by everyone but his mother,
And that her neck bowed like a brittle reed
Having his beer and his crib made at the same time.
This child that life has erased from his book,
And who didn't even have a tomorrow to live,
That's me.

Obviously Vic meant bier, not beer...

mindcaster · Sep 28, 2023

Timeshifter said:
Good stuff Kd.

English academic and theologian Richard Whately wiki wrote a paper/ book in 1852 called 'Historical doubts to Napoleon Bonaparte' which you can read free here

In this paper, he destroyes the narrative of Napoleon, claiming for someone to have acheived the feats attributed to him, there must have been many 'Napoleons'

of course, other mainstream historians ridule Whately, but his text makes more sense than the official narrative.

As with most of these 'historical charactors' the 'proofs' you find in academia, are mostly written in the 20th century.

My guess, the Napoleon stories were old stories re - hashed, and used as a cover for someone, or somethign else.

- Napoleon Audio

Napoléon, aka Nicholas, Brutus and Ali Bonaparte: what do we know?

Llend

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KorbenDallas

KD

Jinxy

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Timeshifter

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Jinxy

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Banta

SH Author

Benjamin Rush

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mindcaster

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