1662: 17 hour Tartarian Muscovy Clock

KorbenDallas

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#1
Little by little, things reveal themselves, though without any specific explanation of what their meaning could be. Here we have a seventeen hour clock which apparently was installed on the Kremlin Spasskaya Tower as recently as 17th century. Obviously it is not being advertised anywhere; you can only run into it by accident. Some of the information is going to be google translated.
In 1628 the master Golovei built the second clock (in exchange for the burned) for the Spassky Tower. The Kremlin watch had a huge revolving dial weighing over 400 kg, divided into 17 parts. The dial was knocked down from the boards and painted with blue paint, light tin stars were fixed on its field. In the upper part of the dial were drawn the Moon and the Sun, the beam of which served as a fixed clock hand. The hourly divisions were denoted by the letters of the Slavic alphabet. The beating of the clock began when the first ray of the sun fell on the Spassky Tower, with the onset of darkness, the clock was translated to the night time. Twice a day, when the sun crossed the horizon, the watchmaker climbed the tower and manually turned the dial to the starting point.
moscow_clock_old_1.jpg
reconstruction_first_russian_clock.jpg

etching - museum reconstruction
In this case, the kudos goes to a certain German baron Augustin von Meyerberg. In 1661- 62, Meyerberg was in Russia as a member of an embassy from the Austrian emperor Leopold I. The purpose of the embassy was to act as mediator between Russia and Poland, which were fighting over the Ukraine. Meyerberg’s mission was unsuccessful. The result of his stay in Russia was the abundantly illustrated book Journey to Muscovy, which contains valuable, even if at times biased, information on the political history, government, and way of life in 17th-century Russia.

The Mayerberg Album is a collection of drawings and descriptions of the 17th-century Tsardom of Russia. Mayerberg travelled in Muscovy for almost a year, arriving on 25 May (15 May O.S.) and departing on 5 May 1662 (26 April O.S.). He wrote two Latin accounts of the embassy. Mayerberg also supervised the production of numerous drawings, collected in the so-called Mayerberg Album. The drawings primarily by one Johann Rudolf Storn, although Mayerberg also was accompanied by a painter called Puman. The album also includes often extensive annotations of the pictures in German. The original album was kept in the Royal Library in Dresden.

The Clock
I am not going to pretend that I understand any of it. Especially when visually we have two different clocks on the same tower.


* * * * *
KD: Just like I said, I have no idea what this clock is, how it works, or why it has 17 hours on its dial. Simply ran into this info, and wanted to share it. If somebody understands the principles of this 17th century clock, please share.

One thing I do understand; it could not be the only clock out there. When a clock gets placed on a tower, it is there for everyone to see. This in turn means that people, to include travelers, understood how to read this clock, which means it had to be fairly common.

From here, the most natural question to ask - where are the other instances of this clock on other various etchings, paintings, etc? Did they get removed to conceal something specific?


Sources:
Mayerberg Album - Wikipedia
Augustin Freiherr von Meyerberg und seine Reise nach Russland
Drawings of Muscovy from The Mayerberg Album
Lazar the Serb - Wikipedia
17th century Spasskaya Tower Clock
 

PrimalRed

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#2
My God- this is really starting to seem like Dark City. Do we actually have less hours during the day? It doesn't stand to reason that we would break up our current 12 hour chunk of time into 17 increments- that would be too small a segment (42 minutes each).

I've felt that time has been accelerating dramatically for the past 10 years. These past 4 years have felt like 1. It's almost another new year and we haven't even finished remarking on how 2017 crept up out of nowhere when it was just 2016. Hey remember that great big presidential election between Hillary and Trump? That was 2016- ancient history now.

Maybe the fabric of time is dramatically less stable than we all are led to believe, which is why they genetically programmed us to have a shorter lifespan. When you die you no longer experience linear time anymore and the previous experiences of entire generations can be wiped clean in this way.
 

Aply1985

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#4
17 is the maximum number of daytime hours in the summer. The clock did not have arrows,
The dial was rotating (the sun ray pointed to the current time), and every hour the bell rang. On the tower lived and watched the clock appointed clockmaker. At sunrise, he manually set the dial for the first hour of the day. The bells repulsed the first sharp bang, and that meant that the morning had come. Then the hours began to work, and every hour beat off the time set for the beginning of the day, until sunset. Then the clock-master translated the clock to night mode, and in the morning again first. On the longest day of the year, 17 day and 7 night hours were obtained, as a result, the system still obtained a 24-hour clock. But every day a manual correction of the dial position was required to start counting from the sunrise
 
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#7
17 is the maximum number of daytime hours in the summer. The clock did not have arrows,
The dial was rotating (the sun ray pointed to the current time), and every hour the bell rang. On the tower lived and watched the clock appointed clockmaker. At sunrise, he manually set the dial for the first hour of the day. The bells repulsed the first sharp bang, and that meant that the morning had come. Then the hours began to work, and every hour beat off the time set for the beginning of the day, until sunset. Then the clock-master translated the clock to night mode, and in the morning again first. On the longest day of the year, 17 day and 7 night hours were obtained, as a result, the system still obtained a 24-hour clock. But every day a manual correction of the dial position was required to start counting from the sunrise
You are absolutly right, as i read in the description:

MoskauClock.jpg

begins the hours with the sunrise an ends the same with sundown
(older german writing : ... fanget an die Stunden mit der Sonnen Aufgang and endiget dieselben mit dero Untergang)
 
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#9
Thsnk you very much for the translation.

By chance, does it say what the outside dial is for?
Yes , says it :

MoskauClock_2.jpg

Das obere an der Mauer ..........fest gemachte Sonnen Bildnis ist der Zeiger über der herumgehenden mit Zieffern bezeichneten Scheiben,

That upper on the Wall .......... fixed sun picture is the needle over the skirting (rotating ?) , with numerics marked slice (i hope is readable)
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#10
It’s readable but not really explaining what it’s for.

Appreciate the translation.

Another nice to know thing would be how they used it during fall, spring and winter. Unless they used a different clock for every season.
 
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#11
as i understand the clock is function like this:

schalter.jpg

The Scale is rotating and begins at Sunrise and ends at Sundown, but the highest value (17:00) will only set an the longest Day(s).
The description also says, (as i understand) that on the other side of Palace Kremlin there is a second outer, public clock.
as i understand the clock is function like this:

schalter.jpg

The Scale is rotating and begins at Sunrise and ends at Sundown, but the highest value (17:00) will only set an the longest Day(s).
The description also says, (as i understand) that on the other side of Palace Kremlin there is a second outer, public clock.
Sorry , it means not 17:00 Uhr or 5 pm it means the 17`s sun hour (sunrise at 0 , sundown at 17)

Maybe, its a type of manual (?) or mechanical sunclock ( technical progress, or so). To see it from distance
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#12
Will post some pictures I saw yestrday of various towers, from where these clocks were presumably removed.

Interesting how not a single one survived.
 

Aply1985

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#13
as i understand the clock is function like this :
View attachment 7456

The Scale is rotating and begins at Sunrise and ends at Sundown, but the highest value (17:00) will only set an the longest Day(s).
The description also says, (as i understand) that on the other side of Palace Kremlin there is a second outer, public clock.

Sorry , it means not 17:00 Uhr or 5 pm it means the 17`s sun hour (sunrise at 0 , sundown at 17)

Maybe, its a type of manual (?) or mechanical sunclock ( technical progress, or so). To see it from distance
What about text under ruthenicum alphabet can you translate it? I can understand only "14 february"

And it is strange explanation in wiki about ruthenians Ruthenians - Wikipedia

What about text under ruthenicum alphabet can you translate it. I can understand only "14 february"

And it is strange explanation in wiki about ruthenians Ruthenians - Wikipedia
Strange map in wiki no lands with name Ruthenia or something like this but baltic sea look how it is called
File: Herberstein Moscovia

Screenshot_20180828-234311_Chrome.jpg
Screenshot_20180829-002254_Chrome.png
 
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#14
The
What about text under ruthenicum alphabet can you translate it? I can understand only "14 february"
And it is strange explanation in wiki about ruthenians Ruthenians - Wikipedia

Strange map in wiki no lands with name Ruthenia or something like this but baltic sea look how it is called
File: Herberstein Moscovia
The text is not clearly seable. I understand anything like :

Alphabet or Character .... (from) ruthenien , witch in language with the cyrillic ... from sacred .......(maybe a Saint ) in most parts match.
And whose memory and Holyday the Russians (?) celebrate, the 14 february. ( maybe im false)

Hm ....witch Saint has his holyday on 14 february ?

Wikipedia says , that Ruthenia has to do with the Rus , Kiever Rus , witch is, as i know the steam cell of Russia.
Ruthenia --> Ruth sounds in german like Rus or better Ruß . Anything like a Proto Russian ?
 
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Glumlit

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#16
Right off the bat, the sun fixed at the top and the moon and earth(?) presumably moving throughout the field of stars, makes me wonder if it's a calendar instead
 

pushamaku

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#17
This is really fascinating to me... Some renderings I found from a Russian blog that depict what the Kremlin looked like in the 1600's.

2734050_original.jpg 2733688_original.jpg

Perhaps this clock was directly related to the 16-hour Slavic-Aryan clock and their astrological calendar.

slavic-aryan-clock.png
slavic-aryan-calendar.jpg
All of this was apparently rooted in the Ancient Russian Ynglistic Church of the Orthodox. The calendar had a 144 (16x9) year cycle that had a direct influence on your own life, and I managed to find a great book on this (attached), with preface below.

One of the simplest concepts to learn in Slavic and Aryan cultures is the concept of time. At the same time, this concept is one of the most difficult to understand. If you are to take a look at Slavic and Aryan cultures closer, you will see that time is very important. However, time is not important, for if you do not have enough time to complete what you have set out to do, you will be given another chance. Events that happen in time, always happen in cycles. While those cycles are very similar, they never happen exactly the same. It can be said that time does not move in a circle, but rather moves in a spiral.

When it comes to both Slavic and Aryan ways of keeping time, we have two Bogi (deities) to thank for helping us with that: Bog Kolyada and Chislobog. Bog Kolyada gifted to Slavic and Aryan people the system of keeping time, which became known as Kolyady Dar (means Gift of Kolyada). Then, it became known as Kalendar and eventually, after many changes and alterations, it turned into the calendar that most of us know and follow today.

Chislobog gifted to Slavic and Aryan people the system of keeping time, that is known as Krugolet of Chislobog. Translated, it means: the circle of summers of Chislobog. Again, we notice the word “circle”, for time repeats itself. The word “summer” means year, for in old and ancient times, in Slavic and Aryan cultures, there were only three seasons: Spring, Autumn and Winter. The year was called Summer. It wasn’t until very recently (no more than several centuries ago), that the Slavic and Aryan system of time keeping was changed and four seasons were created: Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter. The word “summer" was turned into “god" (year), during the first celebration of Noviy God (New Year) in the year of 1700. That transition not only forced Slavic people to follow a new system of time keeping, but to also forget over five and a half thousand summers of own heritage. During that summer, Slavic people celebrated 7,208 Summers from the Creation of World in the Star Temple. That crime against Slavic and Aryan people we will be discussed later.

In this book, we will take a closer look at both the Kolyady Dar and the Krugolet of Chislobog. We will also take a look at different Slavic units of time, different words related directly to time and so on.

But first, let’s take a closer look at the deities, who gifted so much to both Slavic and Aryan cultures.
We even have the Swastika symbol (or "hooked cross" as Wikipedia refers to it) shows up in this calendar as well.

runy_ingliya_ingliizm.png
swastika.jpg
Represents the principle of divinity; Ramha/Ramkha who creates and approves a new year cycle.[33] Another symbol of this month is a hooked cross, which is the symbol of "Yngly" itself (the fiery action of the supreme God in the universe).[2]


The author also had some interesting things to say about Peter the Great.

It is impossible to speak of Slavic heritage and more precisely Slavic time keeping, and not to mention Petr 1st (Peter 1st). Petr 1st was the last tsar of Rus' and the first emperor of Russia, who displayed hatred towards all Slavic people (more about that later) and destroyed over five and a half thousand years of Slavic heritage.

However, many Slavic people believe that Petr 1st was an imposter, and that real Petr 1st died in the French prison Bastille. I will provide you with the information that is available and allow you to make your own judgements.

In the year 1697, Petr 1st traveled to Europe. He left as a young man, twenty six years of age, taller than average height, athletic built, physically healthy, with a mole on his left cheek, with wavy hair, highly educated, an individual who loved everything Russian/Slavic, a christian who knew the bible by memory and so on. Two years later, Petr 1st returns: he doesn’t speak Russian; he hates everything Russian/Slavic; he never learned to write in Russian, even until his death; he forgot everything he knew before his travel and gained many new skills after his return; he had no mole on his left cheek; he had straight hair; he was physically weak and looked as a man in his forties. It is also important to note, that the Petr 1st who returned had a fever in the chronic form (although he was always healthy before), with traces of long use of mercury products, which were then used for the treatment of dengue fever. It should also be noted that the Great Embassy took the Northern Sea route, while the dengue

fever can only be “caught" in the Southern waters, and even then only in the jungle.

Another fact can also be added. His wife Evdokia, who he dearly loved, and with whom he corresponded while away, on his return from the Great Embassy, even without seeing her, without explanation; he sent her to a monastery. Additionally, all of his close advisors and friends died under mysterious circumstances, shortly after his return from the Great Embassy.

An amazing coincidence, is that in Septermber of 1698 in the lists of Bastille appears a prisoner under the name “Marchiel" (the name Petr 1st often used when traveling).

It is said that this prisoner always walked with dignity and wore a velvet mask; he was also treated well. After his death in 1703, his holding cell was thoroughly searched and all traces of this prisoner were destroyed.

This first image is of Petr 1st in the 1690s (see below)

This second image is of Petr 1st just 2 years later (see below)

Lastly, no history about Petr 1st was written until 1761, and it was written by foreigners and not by individuals of Slavic descent.

During his rule, Petr 1st forbid the wearing of any traditionally Slavic clothing; he ordered to shave all beards; he forbid the Native Slavic Faith and destroyed five and a half thousand years of Slavic heritage, by celebrating the

New Year 1700 C.E. on January 1st, instead of the summer 7208 from the Creation of World in the Star Temple as was done in the Autumn before.

Why did Petr 1st have the celebration of New Year on January 1st? The answer to that is in the words themselves. Catholics around the world (and originally Petr 1st was not a catholic) celebrate Christmas on December 25th, the celebration that just happens to coincide with the Slavic celebration of Kolyada, which takes place during the winter solstice. It is believed that Jesus Christ was born on December 25th, and many people also believe that he was of Hebrew descent (something that has already been proven false). Usually, a week after birth, all Hebrew boys are circumcised, which just happens to fall on January 1st. So on January 1st, 1700, Petr 1st congratulated all with Novyy God (the Slavic name for New Year). Here is where the words are very important, for in Slavic language (and more precisely Russian) “Novyy" means “New”, but the word God was used in place of “summer" (Slavs never used term God - “Year” before that). In other words, Petr 1st, on January 1st, 1700 congratulated all of his people with “New (circumcised) God" … and with that, 5508 summers of Slavic heritage were cut off.

I leave it up to you to make the final judgement as to what actually happened. What important is, before the year 1700 C.E., Slavic people celebrated the summer 7208 from the Creation of World in the Star Temple (there are many other dates in Slavic Kolyady Dar), and even that date represented Slavic culture as one of the oldest on this Midgard-Earth.
petr1st_1690s.jpg petr1st_1690s_2yrs_later.jpg
 

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Aply1985

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#19
The


The text is not clearly seable. I understand anything like :

Alphabet or Character .... (from) ruthenien , witch in language with the cyrillic ... from sacred .......(maybe a Saint ) in most parts match.
And whose memory and Holyday the Russians (?) celebrate, the 14 february. ( maybe im false)

Hm ....witch Saint has his holyday on 14 february ?

Wikipedia says , that Ruthenia has to do with the Rus , Kiever Rus , witch is, as i know the steam cell of Russia.
Ruthenia --> Ruth sounds in german like Rus or better Ruß . Anything like a Proto Russian ?
We need to understand that Until 1721, only the name "Muscovy" or "Moscow State" was officially used. Until that time, officially there was no Russia, supposedly heiress of Russia. Because before that time we see on the maps different Slavic principalities and Tartaries, for example Moscow Tartary, but neither as Russia. Then the name of the Moscow state was deliberately changed.
In 1721 the Moscow kingdom seized the lands of Rus, the name of Rus and the history of Rus. They did a rebranding, as they say: they stole the name of Rus and turned Muscovy into Russia. This name is not popular. It is artificial. But it was with this that the myth-making of Great Russia or Veliko Rosi began. Catherine II simply rewrote the story (more precisely, she continued this matter). And those historians who wrote the truth had a very sad fate.
Less than 100 years passed and Russia-Muscovy became known as true Russia. Muscovite started to call Russians as Veliko Rosami. Ruthins Ukrainians suddenly become as "Little Russians". Lies have repeated so many times that it began to seem true.
But it did not become true. At the same time, the conquest of Russia by Muscovy ceased to be recognized. What kind of conquest? One land, one people. How can you conquer your people? No. Maximum combine, gathering together. Good work, yes? Lies that have a beginning, but have no end. The meanness, analogous to that in history and difficult to find.
 
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BStankman

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#20
Pardon my ignorance, but was Muscovy always German speaking?
I was under the impression that Germans were brought in after Napoleon to write the fake history of Russia.

Even from a conventional history standpoint this clock is fascinating. The concept of time is money is very new, from the industrial revolution.
But ingrained since birth, and unquestioned like a globe. It is hard to even imagine how it was before.
 
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