Is General Robert E. Lee dead in this 1865 photo?

KorbenDallas

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#1
The Victorian Era was a pretty morbid time in human history. One of the most unsettling traditions of the era was the practice of post-mortem photography.

Some weird things were happening around the US Civil War times (1861-1865). Is General Lee dead (or made out of wax) in the below photograph taken 5 years before his official death in 1870? Note the stand visible in between his feet.

Officially - On September 28, 1870, Lee suffered a stroke. He died two weeks later, shortly after 9 a.m. on October 12, 1870, in Lexington, Virginia, from the effects of pneumonia. According to one account, his last words on the day of his death, were "Tell Hill he must come up. Strike the tent", but this is debatable because of conflicting accounts and because Lee's stroke had resulted in aphasia, possibly rendering him unable to speak.

Dead_general_Lee_2.jpg


Exposure requirement - a few seconds after 1845.
(pictures in question are post Civil War)
Exposure Info: The truth is that very early daguerreotypes (those from 1839-1845) did take 60-90 seconds of sitting still to capture an image, but the majority of daguerreotypes we see today are from post-1845, when new technology (the addition of bromine fumes to the process) reduced exposure times to a few seconds. - source

There is a dead person in each of the below photographs - source
You can see in many of these photographs how these methods were used; some photographers managed through clothes and furniture to make them less evident, almost invisible. Some families preferred to have their deceased loved ones photographed as if they were asleep; others wanted a more “alive” feel. Photographers achieved this feeling by using glass eyes and other tricks. - A Brief History Of Post-Mortem Photography

Post_mortem_1.jpg Post_mortem_2.jpg Post_mortem_3.jpg Post_mortem_4.jpg Post_mortem_5.jpg Post_mortem_6.jpg Post_mortem_7.jpg Post_mortem_8.jpg Post_mortem_9.jpg Post_mortem_10.jpg Post_mortem_11.jpg Post_mortem_12.jpg Post_mortem_13.jpg Post_mortem_14.jpg

Post-mortem "standing dead" technique

postmortem_technique.jpg

postmortem_technique_1.jpg post_mortem.jpg

* * * * *

What if they are dead?
(or some of them are)

Third guy from the right even has a thumb support lanyard.
They have those support stands. Why?


L to R: 1st-Arthur Boreman; 3rd-Andrew Wilson; 4th D.D.T. Farnsworth; 5th- Henry Dering; 6th- Gibson Cranmer.
Group_Portrait_of_West_Virginia_Statehood_Leaders.tif.jpg

Larger File

Who looks alive in the below photo? I can see only one.
(back then people did not look at the camera?) - source
General Lee and his Confederate officers in their first meeting since Appomattox, August 1869.
This is the only from life photograph of Lee with his Generals in existence, during the war or after.
Robert_E_Lee_with_his_Generals,_1869_1.jpg


US Political Establishment - post 1865
(same New-York "chair" photographs) - do these guys look alive?
Can you imagine if none of the below guys including
the first colored senators and representatives ever existed?
General_Robert_E._Lee_in_May_1869.jpg John_Aaron_Rawlins-Brady-Handy_Seated.jpg Arthur_I._Boreman_-_Brady-Handy.jpg Gilman_Marston_-_Brady-Handy.jpg George_Boutwell,_Brady-Handy_photo_portrait,_ca1870-1880.jpg Illinois Congressman Elihu Washburne, ca. 1860-1875.jpg Joseph_Rainey_-_Brady-Handy.jpg John_Milton_Thayer_-_Brady-Handy.jpg
Benjamin-Sterling-Turner.jpg Jefferson Franklin Long.jpg Robert_C._DeLarge_-_Brady-Handy.jpg Walls_josiah.jpg Lieut._Governor_Dunn.jpg Chapman_Freeman_-_Brady-Handy.jpg Amos_T._Akerman_-_Brady-Handy.jpg Robert Stell Heflin.jpg
For the most of the above, this is the only photo in existence.
As a matter of fact, try to find a different photo of these HUGE political figures.


Abraham Lincoln
1809 – 1865
The only one with multiple photographs is Abraham Lincoln. But I was unable to find a clear photo where you can see his feet unobstructed. He is always either standing or sitting. Unsurprisingly, he sat in that chair as well. And then the Government refused to pay Mathew Brady?

Was the ear reconstructed after Lincoln was shot behind it?
Abraham_Lincoln_seated,_Feb_9,_1864.jpg Abraham_Lincoln_1864.png

Thank Mathew Brady
(responsible for the above chair photographs)
Mathew B. Brady (May 18, 1822 – January 15, 1896) was one of the earliest photographers in American history, best known for his scenes of the Civil War.

Mathew_Brady_1875.jpg
1875 photo

Tell tale sign: During the war, Brady spent over $100,000 to create over 10,000 plates. He expected the US government to buy the photographs when the war ended. When the government refused to do so he was forced to sell his New York City studio and go into bankruptcy. Congress granted Brady $25,000 in 1875, but he remained deeply in debt.

Sources:
- If You Ever See A Photo Like This In A Book, There's Something You Should Know
- A Brief History Of Post-Mortem Photography
- Mathew B. Brady
- Daguerreotype Q&A
- Why people never smiled in old photographs
- A Proximate Violence: Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors

* * * * *​

KD hypothesis: We have seen too many unexplainable, from the traditional historical point of view, things. I understand that this topic is questioning ones's sanity, but somehow, I feel fairly confident suggesting the following.

There was a project meant to falsify a specific period in the history of the world. May be to substitute one meaning of the events with a totally different one. In this case, it is the Civil War, and post Civil War period in the United States. In a short period of time there were multiple photographs taken. Whether those were real dead people, or Madame Tussauds type wax sculptures, I do not know. But I do ask you to pay closer attention to what you are seeing, and try to rationalize certain facts, and occurrences.

Madame Tussauds
By 1835, Marie had settled down in Baker Street, London and opened a museum. One of the main attractions of her museum was the Chamber of Horrors. The name is often credited to a contributor to Punch in 1845, but Marie appears to have originated it herself, using it in advertising as early as 1843.This part of the exhibition included victims of the French Revolution and newly created figures of murderers and other criminals. Other famous people were added, including Lord Nelson and Sir Walter Scott.

Her first wax figure was created in 1777 and was the figure of Voltaire. Some of the figures she made herself still exist. The London gallery originally contained some 400 different figures, but fire damage in 1925 coupled with German bombs in 1941 has rendered most of these older models defunct.

898865ED-8313-4AFF-8C3E-74D6D3C419A0.jpeg A3FB8595-249D-45CB-BED3-230C23BB14EC.jpeg BB9183FD-326E-4E00-B00A-A90AD15FF70B.jpeg Bernard_Tussaud.jpg

I consider a possibility where none of the people in the photographs in question are alive. Meaning they are either dead, or made out of wax.

head rest.jpg

The stability support stand: Even for pre-1845 time frame this support stand sounds lame. You can still twitch and twist with it. For the post-1845 technology, requiring only a few seconds to take a photo, I do not see any reasons to use this support stand. Who here can not stand still for 5-10 seconds? So why did they use it? I think this "immobilization technique" story is a cover up for a cover up.

1865 group photo - no support required
(somehow these 1865 guys need no stabilizer support)
civil war_1865.png

1865 group photo.jpg 1865 group photo_1.jpg 1865 group photo_2.jpg

KD Opinion: Is this how a part of our fake history was made? I, personally, lean towards these "historical individuals" being made out of wax, for the stand does not appear to be strong enough to support a human body weight. But then again, may be it could.

The photographer died broke. The original Madam Tussauds figures got destroyed. What else is new?

Wonder what that would mean for our history, if such a fakery was indeed carried out.

What if those people never existed?
That said, try to find a photograph of General Lee, where he is not supported by either his saber, a chair, or a support stand.

GIF
general_lee.gif
Note: Reddit's CulturalLayer provided an idea for this article.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#3
It sounds like a plausible explanation utilizing exposure as an excuse.

Unless they had to stand in place for 3 days straight it does not appear to be that difficult to stand still for a few minutes.

Besides, this stability apparatus will not prevent a person from executing smaller movements. The same ones soldiers standing at attention for hours do.

I just find it strange to use the same device for both dead and alive.
 
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#4
His right hands grip on his hat makes me think he is definitely alive. That would be quite difficult to achieve with a limp body. It is the bent 1st knuckle of this thumb that I am talking about specifically.
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#6
Note: I think there is way more to it than meets the eye. If those 19th century photographers were indeed using these tricks to photograph dead people, we may have a whole bunch of dead famous people out there posing for photos years prior to some important achievements they did.

They even used the same props for the possibly dead people. Te first two photos below belong to General Lee - Confederate army, and some
John Aaron Rawlins - Union army.

Same chair, same posture (right hand). Are they dead?

89FF59A0-1FC6-4B11-A4F4-40A3D042423E.jpeg John_Aaron_Rawlins-Brady-Handy_Seated.jpg
BA405533-A46E-4C64-866C-FD417D0352BF.jpeg 158609AD-05A0-4DA8-A1A0-6C653B44DCCA.jpeg

And all of the above needs to be plausibly explained today as a support device, because the person could not stand still for a couple minutes. Yet, if that person is indeed dead at that specific moment in time, that could crush the entire historical paradigm.

* * * * *

You can see in many of these photographs how these methods were used; some photographers managed through clothes and furniture to make them less evident, almost invisible. Some families preferred to have their deceased loved ones photographed as if they were asleep; others wanted a more “alive” feel. Photographers achieved this feeling by using glass eyes and other tricks. - A Brief History Of Post-Mortem Photography

She almost looks alive in this picture

Post_mortem_5.jpg
Below are some of the examples of the photographs of dead people done in this "post-mortem" manner.

Post_mortem_1.jpg Post_mortem_2.jpg Post_mortem_3.jpg Post_mortem_4.jpg

Source: If You Ever See A Photo Like This In A Book, There's Something You Should Know
 

humanoidlord

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#7
alive, though that stand explanation is bullshit, there is some other reason they used such stands, if only history had not erased it!

Same chair, same posture (right hand). Are they dead?
there is something off about the haid and the eyes of the guys in the top, both look retouched
 

ion.brad

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#9
An other brilliant piece of research! As taking pictures of the dead persons was a developed business on that times, I suppose bending a finger on a hat will not be very difficult with the right substances. Look at the army group photo from 1865, where no support was required and pay attention to the horses also! Then look at the circumstances: no other photo of general Lee with his staff?! I think Korben is right and all are dead!

As there were plenty of white american natives and there was a huge need of many hoax events to cover such a broad period of time, I think the congressmen which have a single photo during their entire life are also dead persons used to create those hoax events.

But we are running short of time: the months were passing and we have no idea what the infrared intelligent beings of Trevor James Constable are doing in our atmosphere! Looks like the next mud flood and soil liquefaction are around the corner! Have anybody seen Philipp Druzhinin videos?
 

aceofarms

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#10
That gif of Lee is quite crazy. His facial expression changes are non existent between the two photos.

It does seem like it would be easy to hoax major events like this. In those days when people went off to war you had no real idea what was happening until people came back or Messengers delivered the news. That news could be modified to hell. It's the same old thing that's been doing even today. Who knows if people of that time period we're not suspicious of the real act of the civil war? Why did America invade Iraq, Why are we in Vietnam? why are we in Korea? Why are we in Afghanistan? I'm sure this happens with other countries as well. Everytime there is war we are confused why we are actually there. The civil war happened because of 'slavery' maybe in part it is true but the actual execution is gone from history
 
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whitewave

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#12
Wasn't so much about setting free those poor slaves and treating them like equals so much as it was about the slave owners being able to sell their products for cheaper because of slave labor. The Northerners were going under financially and something had to be done to eliminate the competition. Also, the Second bank of the United States had a 20 year charter that expired in 1836. Jackson got elected and vetoed the renewal. Abe had also run in 1832 along with Clay (both lost to Jackson) but Lincoln's first political speech in 1832 gave an indication of his leanings.

"Friends and Fellow-Citizens:

"I am plain Abe Lincoln. I have consented to become a candidate for the legislature. My political principles are like the old woman's dance-short and sweet. I believe in a United States Bank; I believe in a protective tariff; I believe in a system of internal improvements, and I am against human slavery. If on that platform you can give me your suffrages, I shall be much obliged. If not, no harm done, and I remain respectfully yours, ABE LINCOLN."
His views became clear during an 1858 series of debates with his opponent in the Illinois race for U.S. Senate, Stephen Douglas, who had accused him of supporting “negro equality.” In their fourth debate, at Charleston, Illinois, on September 18, 1858, Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor. In this way they were equal to white men, and for this reason slavery was inherently unjust. His original solution to the slavery issue was to ship them off to Liberia (which eventually was done in part), not to free them.

Lincoln suspended the constitution (which has NEVER been re-instated) but we eventually got our central bank. As to whether these pictures are of dead people I can not say except that Lincoln looked dead even when he was standing in front of a crowd giving a speech.

*You may have guessed, I'm not a fan of Lincoln-not because he freed the slaves-they should never have been enslaved to start with but because he threw our constitution out the window to bypass the checks and balances of our 3 branch system and then had the bad manners to die before re-instituting it-if he ever intended to*
 
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KorbenDallas

KorbenDallas

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#13
I will through this out there. Anybody ever thought about what we really know about the slavery, besides movies, texts and etchings? Photography existed for 30 years at the time of abolition.

Civil war is directly tied into slavery. If our Civil war was a part of a much bigger global war, what does it leave us with as far as slavery goes?
 

whitewave

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#14
What we KNOW is nothing, really. What I've read is that about 1% of the South owned slaves. I think slavery was the pretext to gain an agenda. Much like our present day rash of school shootings is used as a pretext for a national gun grab. And with the passage of the trickily worded 13th amendment, we ALL became slaves. The black man was apparently more highly regarded than any woman of any color as they got the right to vote a fully 50 years before women. It's dehumanizing that blacks had the legal status of 3/4th's of a person but women were considered chattel. In most countries they still are.
The Irish were also enslaved and because many abducted blacks were skilled and/or knowledgeable in one field or another, they were more valued than the Irish peasants who were tenements in their own land and never got the opportunity to gain skills equal to the African "imports". The Irish were sold for far less than the Africans. Other African slaves eventually gained their freedom and were also owners of slaves.
This is not a popular viewpoint; pointing out that history and our perception (and knee-jerk reaction to) is not as we've been told. It seems there was a period of "cleansing" the historical record with "temporary" exhibitions and fires then a strong push toward the end goal of a global power grab. Almost all the dominoes have fallen but there's still hope to expose the agenda and bring down the players with such sites as this.
You're to be commended, KD, for your keen insight and valuable service in pulling back the curtain on our history as are the other fine observers on this site.
 

ISeenItFirst

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#18
I see the same chairs a lot. And they mostly seem to have some nubbins high on the backrest to rest your cranium on.
 

exclamation

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#20
An other brilliant piece of research! As taking pictures of the dead persons was a developed business on that times, I suppose bending a finger on a hat will not be very difficult with the right substances. Look at the army group photo from 1865, where no support was required and pay attention to the horses also! Then look at the circumstances: no other photo of general Lee with his staff?! I think Korben is right and all are dead!

As there were plenty of white american natives and there was a huge need of many hoax events to cover such a broad period of time, I think the congressmen which have a single photo during their entire life are also dead persons used to create those hoax events.

But we are running short of time: the months were passing and we have no idea what the infrared intelligent beings of Trevor James Constable are doing in our atmosphere! Looks like the next mud flood and soil liquefaction are around the corner! Have anybody seen Philipp Druzhinin videos?
I have indeed watched Philipp Druzhinin videos... a couple of them today as he did a walking touru of another area of Moscow and chould the ankle level windows..
 

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